<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS.SGW-Siggi:
Quake doesn't count. Quake is an exercise in hand/eye reflex/coordination, not a game.

....rather than simply REACT (Quake).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But then what do you call playing on the Stalingrad map? Doesn't that map's gameplay resemble that of Quake's, where the player uses more "hand/eye reflex/coordination" then strategy?

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3rd Battalion
504th Parachute Infantry Regiment
82nd Airborne Division
"The Blue Devils"
http://www.ele.uri.edu/ctc/images/3504thck.jpg

No one agrees with Siggi, but I very much doubt any reasoning will convince him other-wise.

His opinion is his, but it's an odd one, I'll say that.

I've never heard it before, so at least you can't call him unoriginal.

Oh, Hotspur, you forgot to add patience at the beginning of your post as a quality that sets some players apart.

Patience will win you many fights, but only at the right time.

No, I don't mean camping, I just mean knowing when to wait for someone to come to you, and when you know it is best to go after them.

Countless situations that our friend Siggi has witnessed all himself.

First off, this has to be the longest thread in AA.com history!

Secondly, what about luck? I feel luck plays a 15 to 20 percent hand in MOH. I mean when one runs into a room full of enemies in Stalingrad, lays waste (and I'm not talking about sneaking up on a bunch of snipers), and comes out unscathe, there is no way said person planned on it! When I lay some covering fire and happen to frag someone because he/she had thier head in the wrong place at the wrong time, I don't believe that it was because of my skillfulness. I think, "unluck son of a b****".

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3rd Battalion
504th Parachute Infantry Regiment
82nd Airborne Division
"The Blue Devils"
http://www.ele.uri.edu/ctc/images/3504thck.jpg

Ok, after four straight hours we lost our 88mm only twice. We had four US versus us two for a long stretch and didn't lose a single battle. Loads of different people came thru, with a few going long term.

Whatever, I don't think I can any longer maintain that everyone reaches equality in this game, unless there simply hasn't been enough time yet. In CS everyone was of a similar level, at least in my experience. I can't blame it on lag as everything was very smooth and nobody complained of any. I guess I have to conclude that either the SS.SGW are MoH gods or all our opponents to date are just totally crap. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
Yes, it got so easy that I took to running down the road with a pistol in one hand and my dick in the other. Lol.

CS was never like this. In that I had about a 70/30 kill-death ratio. In this I have a 90/10 at least.

Oh well. I'm curious now to see how it plays on somebody else's server. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Nope. Stalingrad is a pokey little map for sure, but it doesn't enable the players to run around like headless spasticated rabbkens. Sorry...a rabbken is a cross between a rabbit and a chicken. I have seen a few twats in MoH trying to import the Quake bunny-hop into MoH but fortunately it doesn't work very well.

Quake ain't a game, it's a sick travesty intended for retard junior-school drop-outs. I never would have had a problem with it except it sucked just about every PC game resource dryer than a desert. Magazines...quak quak quak. Online servers, nothing but quak. It was like a fuckin' plague. And for what?! A 'game' in which the players run around in garish uniforms at stupid speeds, jumping up and down as they go like spastic rabbits on coke, firing ridiculous weapons that even Flash Gordon would have been embarrassed to be seen with. A totally shite 'game' that only losers wanted to be any 'good' at. "Duh, I can't think, I can't plan, I have no brain to speak of...what game is there for me? Ah...Quake. All I have to do is react to stimuli like a chicken being zapped with a cattle-prod, and if I'm quick enough I'll win. Yay!"

Ahem. I guess I don't like quak much then.

Well, if I'm wrong I must be pretty hot shit at MoH. I don't die much, except when I get bored and steam in with the shotgun and take out three or four of the enemy before dying in a hail of bullets. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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ok.. shotgun is pretty cheap. But, in big areas ,its easy to kill a shotgun user.. the rocket shit is hard enough , but if the guy miss then its a problem for him to stay alive.. the sniper is good .. but not in close war.. so maybe , and i say maybe its easy scoring with it but you wont get long with just those weapons..

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I totally agree with Hannover.

I've already been called down on another forum for saying I like to use the shotgun primarilly in most games, so I started by using it in MoH.

Apparently, it requires no skill to use and is only used by players who can't be bothered to learn how to aim.

I've been told that it's as simple as 'Target and shooot to kill'.

Funny, I thought that was how all guns worked, but then I suppose I must be wrong.

As Hannover pointed out, the shotgun is virtually useless at mid-long range. You have to expend all 5 shells in most cases, even if you hit with each one, to kill someone who isn't within 10 yards of you. But at close range they are devastating.

Which is how it should be.

I did just as Hannover did. I decided to quieten the moaners and complainers by trying out the SMG.

I found it much easier to use, and could get kills from a much longer range.

I tried the Axis Mauser 98k. A lot harder to use, but with practice I know I could be just as effective with it as I am with the shotgun, I simply have to keep some distance between me and the enemy. Nothing more satisfying that getting a 100+ yard headshot with one though.

I too don't mind players who use the rpg, but I do get annoyed at their lack of judgment (or lack of self-preservation) when they fire one of at point-blank range.

Whatever weapon anyone uses it all comes down to that person's skill. Skill meaning their reflexes, their ability to keep calm under fire, their ability to use the scenery and to out-think the opposition.


Siggi, I completely disagree with your claim that no-one can excell at any online shooter.

Medal of honor, and quake, and Half-life and all the others all require a mixture of various skills.

I agree that some of those skills are capped, if you like, by the player's computer and connection.

But assuming a person has a nice set-up and decent ping (sub 80, for instance) they can excell in themselves as far as they like.

I know a few of the best (and I also know THE best) european Half-life (DM, not TFC or CS) players.

You only have to watch them play a game of Half-life to see that they certainly aren't 'Average' and that they certainly don't just use reflexes to play so well.

Chinx is probably the best European player there is, and you just have to watch him to realise that he out-thinks opponents all the time to the point where they don't even see him before they are dead, or he simply predicts where they will be and fires without seeing them before-hand.

This man doesn't cheat, either. He, along with the rest of his clan [CWA] has found out and shamed many cheaters in his time.

I'm sorry, but anyone who claims that you can't be skillful at anything in this world is just jealous that they themselves don't excell.

The players that stand out are the ones that take a particular gun and use it like no other does.

Let's take the sniper rifle for example. If I were to ask you how you use it, you'd probably reply somethng along the lines of:

Get into a well covered position, get low and kill at range.

Well that's what most players who use it do. It works fine until the enemy work out where you are then either rush you, or sneak up carefully, with assault weapons or grenades and flush you out.

Then the 'average' player, as you like to put it, would be foobard.

Now take one of my mates, Rigz. He is what I would call an excellent player at half-life. He too plays in [CWA] and is certainly not an average player.

We both started out playing MoH at the end of December and, after trying out a couple of the weapons on offer, he decided to 'learn' the sniper rifle.

He's aware that staying still with the sniper rifle will only get you maybe one or two kills before you die.

So he doesn't.

Watch him play one day. He uses the sniper rifle like a shotgun and is a very clever player. He uses his ears very well and out-smarts players a lot.

Sure, sometimes he gets caught by someone, but then we all do.

But he decided to not just get good at the sniper, but to be the best there is out there with it.

At the moment, I've yet to see anyone better.

Oh, and he's already been accused of cheating a few times.

Cheating is more paranoia than reality. If someone beats you all the time they must be cheating because no one can be better than you by any large degree?

That's rubbish.

I know for a fact that he doesn't cheat. He sees cheating claims fired at him as a compliment, as he knows he doesn't cheat.

I don't deny there are cheats out there, I've seen an MPEG demo of one being used in Counter-Strike. It was horrific stuff to watch.

Having seen one in action though it makes it much easier to discern those who do use cheats and those who are simply better than me.

I always give players the benefit of the doubt, because if you are wrong how much of a loser must you look?

No matter how good you think you are at anything in this world, there will always be someone better than you.

Unless you strive to be that person yourself.

I don't because I can't commit the kind of time and practice required to become that person.

But I am happy just playing my game and improving myself. I get better with every second that I play, and I would disagree with anyone who says differently.

If someone beats you regularly it is most likely because they are better than you.

Some people have a hard time admitting that.



[This message has been edited by Ydiss (edited January 04, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Ydiss (edited January 04, 2002).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS.SGW-Siggi:

"Duh, I can't think, I can't plan, I have no brain to speak of...what game is there for me? Ah...Quake. All I have to do is react to stimuli like a chicken being zapped with a cattle-prod, and if I'm quick enough I'll win. Yay!"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif I agree Siggi. I dont like quake either. Dont forget UT.

UnimaginativeQuakeClone Tournament

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3rd Battalion
504th Parachute Infantry Regiment
82nd Airborne Division
"The Blue Devils"
http://www.ele.uri.edu/ctc/images/3504thck.jpg

A real sniper, if he's any good, will move after one shot.
A real sniper operates in an environment that is unfamiliar to his enemy...usually they are entering the 'neighbourhood' for the first time.
A real sniper has to contend with drop and windage.
A real sniper gets to camo-up with a multitude of materials.
A real sniper operates in a variety of light conditions.

I could go on.

In MoH, to make this game the example, none of the above apply. Once everyone has played a map for a couple of days it's as familiar as the back of one's hand. Light condition is constant. There is no variable camo. The balistics are crude...bullets function like a laser beam. It is not possible to move unseen...a monitor reveals all and every movement, unlike a real environment in which it IS possible to move unseen even when being looked at directly.

Again, I could go on.

I know a lot of you take great pride in being 'good' at these kinds of games, and you probably don't want somebody coming in here telling you that they are nothing more than a loose fantasy. However, somebody else started this (interesting) debate and I'm onboard.
I agree with you on one thing...those who are able to predict the movements of other players have an edge. But come on, who can't do THAT after learning a map??? The bloody things are so limited you would have to be retarded not to be able to predict where an opponent would generally choose to go.

Take a top real-world sniper and put him in MoH...he would die just as often as the twelve year old kid who plays it after school. You simply cannot be 'good' in this kind of game. It offers too little in the way of variables. Once you've learned all the variables, that's it...game 'mastered'.

Those who fancy themselves as 'Top Guns' will refuse to accept these facts...they prefer to live with the fantasy that this kind of game simulates real life and they would be hot potatoes on a real battle-field. Those who know better enjoy it for the light-weight fun it is, but without the cheats please. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Oh, and I don't like Quake at all either. It's far too spammy for my liking.

That doesn't mean that the players who do like it don't have any skill.

The guy who won the US championships didn't get there by simply having fast reflexes and a mentality of a narcotic poultry confection, as you like to put it.

I watched the demo of the final in which he won and half of the time he was predicting where his opponent was and out-witted him at pretty much every step.

Whatever game you play they all require skills to be the best.

The only game you could truly say doesn't require any skill or brains would be one set in an open room with no walls or objects in which two players stand in front of eachother shooting the same guns until one person died.

Add a wall to dodge around and instanly this pseudo game would require at least reflexes and awareness.

Whether you are running about Stalingrad blindly blasting players with a shotgun all day, or Tau-cannon wall/jumping/grenade/rpg spamming in Half-life, or flying through the air mindlessly in Q3 rail-gunning like-minded people it all takes skill.

You should stick to the games you enjoy. That's the most important thing here and, sadly, it seems you have forgotten that.

If you enjoy a game, play it. If you don't, don't.

If someone beats you all the time and you don't enjoy it, or can't be bothered to try to learn from it, go play elsewhere.

The person who rapes you continuously with 25 ping and the shotgun has just as much right to be there as you do.

But I do enjoy this game. It's just that I don't kid myself I'm skillful when I do well at it. I either have a good conn compared to others' lag or some other real-world variable is in the mix.

Ok, let's take a real-world example to prove my point.

What makes one athelete the champion, and the other the loser?
Out of an almost infinite number of variables let's take the obvious...

Muscle quality.
Bone strength.
Stamina.
Mental condition.
Blood supply (circulation).
Tendons and ligaments.

Etc.

All or any of these variables are what make the difference between winning or losing on an athletics race track.

Now put them into our game, MoH...oh dear, they don't go. Our soldiers have one run speed, never get winded, don't have variable qualities of circulation, stamina, ligaments etc etc etc.
So how can one player 'improve' his movement performance? How can any one player become superior in that particular respect? He can't. He learns to move AS BEST AS THE CODE ALLOWS and then tops-out.
Once every other player has done that (and any child could) all players are equal in that respect.

Now apply that rule to every other component of the game...shooting, grenade throwing, jumping over walls, sneaking, looking around corners...etc etc etc.

How can any one player get an edge? By buying a new mouse (my track-ball isn't ideal for MoH so I could probably improve by changing it), by getting a good broadband connection...by tinkering with his hardware in general. Or by cheating.

But being 'good'? Good at manipulating the code? Why is it that kids are as good as adults at these kinds of games? Exactly...the code levels everyone. The code is so crude, in terms of simulating real life, THAT EVEN A KID CAN MASTER IT AND COMPETE WITH AN ADULT. That cannot be said about most things in the REAL world.

These games DO NOT REQUIRE SKILL, anymore than a chimp requires skill to be able to peel a banana. They require no more skill than that required by a typist. These games consist of repetitive tasks, standard types of ingrained reflexes and a general ability to predict the actions of one's opponent. Hey, just think what YOU would do and apply it to the other guy...it ain't like the REAL WORLD where you have plenty of choices. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I rest my case. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

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[This message has been edited by SS.SGW-Siggi (edited January 04, 2002).]

Siggi says (finally): >I don't think I can any longer maintain that everyone reaches equality in this game, unless there simply hasn't been enough time yet<

This is a grudging admission that he was wrong. Thank you, Siggi!

Now looking at the rest of the post, and in fact the balance of Siggi's posts, this is what we find, Siggi saying things such as: >I guess I have to conclude that either the SS.SGW are MoH gods or all our opponents to date are just totally crap. Yes, it got so easy that I took to running down the road with a pistol in one hand and my dick in the other<

His posts are full of such comments, and these comments boil down to this: "I AM A STUD AT MOH!!"

I have no problem with this. I have no reason to doubt it. But Siggi, if the real reason for this thread is to boast, then please do so with out dissembling!

Siggi,

It is precisely the *lack* of all your listed variables that allow someone to master the game.

Respectfully,
Hannover


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS.SGW-Siggi:
A real sniper, if he's any good, will move after one shot.
A real sniper operates in an environment that is unfamiliar to his enemy...usually they are entering the 'neighbourhood' for the first time.
A real sniper has to contend with drop and windage.
A real sniper gets to camo-up with a multitude of materials.
A real sniper operates in a variety of light conditions.

I could go on.

In MoH, to make this game the example, none of the above apply. Once everyone has played a map for a couple of days it's as familiar as the back of one's hand. Light condition is constant. There is no variable camo. The balistics are crude...bullets function like a laser beam. It is not possible to move unseen...a monitor reveals all and every movement, unlike a real environment in which it IS possible to move unseen even when being looked at directly.

Again, I could go on.

I know a lot of you take great pride in being 'good' at these kinds of games, and you probably don't want somebody coming in here telling you that they are nothing more than a loose fantasy. However, somebody else started this (interesting) debate and I'm onboard.
I agree with you on one thing...those who are able to predict the movements of other players have an edge. But come on, who can't do THAT after learning a map??? The bloody things are so limited you would have to be retarded not to be able to predict where an opponent would generally choose to go.

Take a top real-world sniper and put him in MoH...he would die just as often as the twelve year old kid who plays it after school. You simply cannot be 'good' in this kind of game. It offers too little in the way of variables. Once you've learned all the variables, that's it...game 'mastered'.

Those who fancy themselves as 'Top Guns' will refuse to accept these facts...they prefer to live with the fantasy that this kind of game simulates real life and they would be hot potatoes on a real battle-field. Those who know better enjoy it for the light-weight fun it is, but without the cheats please. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

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So, Siggi, are you telling me you're the best out there?

Or do others beat you?

Or are you claiming that because MoH doesn't exactly resemble real-life that it requires no skill at all beyond learning a map to play?

Firstly, MoH is a game. I'm glad I got the opportunity to let that come to your attention.

My question was relating to a game, not to what a real sniper would do.

If you want to talk about real-life battle tactics I suggest you go post on a forum that relates to them, not on one about a game.

Secondly, if all you think it takes to excell in any game is to learn the map then I pity you.

You are either the best player in the world or an extremely average one. I don't know for sure, 'cos I've never seen you play.

But no game will ever, ever, ever reflect real-life exactly. Your argument is that Medal of Honor requires no skill because basically it isn't the real thing.

You're right, a real-life expert sniper who has never played MOH would be crap at it to begin with.

But then again that goes for anyone.

It also goes for an expert MoH player who was given a real gun and told to kill with it.

They'd die pretty fast.

Your argument is redundant, it has nothing to do with the game at all.

So, you claim that you have mastered everything there is to know about the game?

If you say yes, then well done. You must be a very good player.

If the answer is no, then what are you complaining about? There's lot to learn about any game, and always more than you first thought.

Any experienced player would laugh at your claims that no game takes skill because it isn't real.

Simply put, you are saying that everyone is as good as eachother because all games are limited in what you can learn.

Come play on a server with me someday and we'll put that to the test shall we?

According to you we'd always get the same score, unless of course I cheat.

It's a sad and redundant excuse to cover up the fact that others are better at a game (yes, it is a game, remember?) than you are.

They are either as good as you, or they cheat.

That's the most retarded crap I've heard in a long time.

Put it this way. Rigz just pointed out to me that you can take the basics of most games and relate it to Chess.

Chess is all about decision making, and thinking ahead.

Anyone who claims Chess requires no skill to play is an idiot (and probably can't play it themselves).

Any game that requires decision making requires a skill.

Chess certainly is restricted in it's parameters, as is any game. In fact, it is more restricted than Medal of Honor, as it only involves an 8x8 playing area and each piece can only do one thing.

There is only so many moves you can do per position of any game. The best players see those moves long before their opponent does.

Medal of Honor, as with any real-time game, has the same ideas but with an added dimension and the fact that you need hand-eye coordination and reflexes.

Plus, just think about how many permutations and individual situations there are in a game like MoH.

And it's all real-time!

The only way Chess becomes anything resembling a game of noughts and crosses is when you program a computer to play it for you.

Gary Kasparov lost 2-1 to the most advanced computer to play Chess in the history of the game.

That tells you that there are still possibilities of improvement (although he is a genius and without a doubt the best at the game in the world).

Are you trying to tell me that you are as good as him at Chess? Oh sorry, he must use a whall-hack or something.

I'm sorry but your argument is weak.

It is precisely the *lack* of all my listed variables that allows EVERYONE to master the game.

http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

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SIggi, you really need to come play us on a public server.

Do you use All Seeing Eye to browse for servers? The ones Rigz and I usually play in are Barry's World and Gamesdomain public Objective servers.

They are uk servers. There is also SHRIMPWARS and BOOMTOWN, which are european ones.

Drop in sometime or give us a time when we can meet you in a server of your choice for a friendly game.

Both Rigz and I seem to get the same success ratio as you claim (although I doubt that will remain so for too long), so it would be interesting to see how things go, if nothing else.

If I accept your arguments Ydiss I have to believe I'm a top player at this game, because if I'm not pissing about in it I get lots of kills and rarely die.

The guys who die are those who are bored of the same map and run around like nuts for the fun of it.

Everyone has mastered the code (odd exceptions excepted), everyone has learned the two MP maps, everyone is broadly equal.

I don't need to believe I'm a super-sniper, so I don't pretend this game requires skill. It's as simple as that. Those who insist these types of game require skill are those who are achieving little in the real world and need to compensate. I'm sorry if that hurts but don't shoot the messenger. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

Oh, and I'd be more than happy to meet you online...a little needle always provides welcome frisson in an otherwise stagnating experience. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

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We'll see, Siggs, because it hasn't happened yet. =)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS.SGW-Siggi:
It is precisely the *lack* of all my listed variables that allows EVERYONE to master the game.

http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



[This message has been edited by Hannover (edited January 04, 2002).]

Yeh, you aren't listening.

By the way, any game allows everyone to master it completely. But I can tell you that no one ever does.

It hasn't happened yet.

What the hell are you going on about?

I am doing just fine in life at the moment, and I enjoy playing games in my spare time.

There is no direct correlation between being good at a game and having no social, or work-life.

Except in most cases those that do spend all their time playing games will be better than those who don't.

I know for a fact I haven't learnt everything about MoH already, but I would still be confident that I could beat you in a team-play or ffa situation.

Until i see other-wise I'll not believe you knwo everything about the game.


[This message has been edited by Ydiss (edited January 04, 2002).]

Besides, like I said before, it's all about enjoying a game. Some get enjoyment out of beating others, some get enjoyment simply from the taking part.

I would admit that I do enjoy beating other players, but then I also like playing it because no one game is the same and there are many situations and events that transpire to make me laugh or feel good.

If you don't get any of that then why do you play games?

I can see it's not to be the best (because we are all the best aren't we?) It can't be to enjoy the situations becasue you've done them all already (Man you must play a lot, then).

So why do you play it?

Anytime your actions affect the outcome, skill comes into play. Conversely, the only time skill is not involved is if you can't make mistakes. Example: the card game 'war' In that game, the only way to affect the outcome would be to cheat, e.g. stack the deck.

Anything in real life requires skills. And skills are developed. Infants are born with almost no skill at all. Whatever activities you participate in, usually ones that interest you or are forced upon you, are ones you will develop skill in. In fact, almost any activity requires a set of multiple skills. Real life war, video games, baseball, playing piano, conversing with people, all require skills. Same goes for MoH. I think it requires more skills than Q or UT, which makes it more fun for me. But even those games require a variety of skills, and there are many different levels one can attain in each skill. The sum of these skills determines your ability at the game. Two players could both be equally good, yet for different reasons.

Example: I became very good at ping-pong. I learned it from Chinese kids, so I play Chinese style (holding paddle like chop sticks). Ping-pong was very popular in my school. It came down to 3 players at the top, myself included. I would almost always just barely beat player 2. Player 2 would almost always beat player 3. And player 3 would almost always beat me. The thing is, all 3 of us were never there at the same time (large school). So player 3 simply would not believe that I beat player 2. Yet there was something about our different styles that made this so.

Also, I am an avid chess player. In chess, one player, such as Karpov, could actually be better at strategy then Kasparov, but Kasparov better at tactics. There are also 'will to win', stamina, and many other skills invloved. The sum total of all involved skills makes Kasparov at least marginally more successful head-to-head with Karpov.

What makes MoH so much more fun than Q or UT is the added skills demanded by the different rules. In the future there will no doubt be games that are even more realistic and make MoH seem boring.

werd..

How could you possibly be "confident" you could beat me? Are you psychic? Or do you think you are so 'good' at the game that you could believe anyone beatable, no matter what their ability at it? Lol. Sounds like you take this way too seriously.

To answer your question...I play it because it has me in stitches more often than not. Il2 I play seriously because a) it's a remarkably accurate simulation and b) the rules we play by simulate real life involvement in air combat. MoH is a bit of light side-play for me. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

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...

You need to write a dissertation on the mastery of contradiction, Siggi. You have it down to an art.

Btw, I don't think I am better than you, but from the way you talk I am confident that I would be - Whether I take the game seriously or not.

Contradiction number one: 'Or do you think you are so 'good' at the game that you could believe anyone beatable, no matter what their ability at it?'

So ability is a question now? I thought no one had any ability...

Contradiction number two: 'a) it's a remarkably accurate simulation and b) the rules we play by simulate real life involvement in air combat. '

You tear the game apart exactly because it is NOT realistic. The fact that you use the word 'simulation' is your only saving grace.

I would agree that there are a few players out there that have learnt just about everything that the demo has to offer already. But I do not agree that everyone has.

I'd disagree completely that you have learnt every single situation and permutation of the game so far, though.

That's some extensive playing there, bud. Have you played everyone that there is to play already? And fought each and every one of them in every inch of the two maps, each having each and every combination of weapon in each of those million situations?

Wow.

Oh, and I've beaten players who have much better ping than me. And have been beaten (in other games) by players who have much worse ping than me.

I saw a player in MOH the other day who had 15 ping and didn't have a clue.

I am a better player than that person. Simple really. I don't feel big because of it, it's just a fact.

I get off much more when I play MoH from a decent team-effort than any single act of my own.

I can imagine a conversation you would have before a game now...

'Hey, let's go play Medal of Honor and get an even amount of kills as everyone else!'

'Cool! yeh, let's go! Sounds great!'

You seem bored of the game already, and it hasn't even come out yet. Why bother playing it?

It's a sad fact, but you are the kind of person who's knee-jerk reaction (or should I say wrist-jerk?) is to brand someone a cheat just because they beat you easilly.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS.SGW-Siggi:


THAT EVEN A KID CAN MASTER IT AND COMPETE WITH AN ADULT.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It seems to me that you are underestimating kids Siggi. Kids can also be good at games, no matter the code.

[This message has been edited by The_Guy (edited January 04, 2002).]

well done loved story i couldn't agree anymore no one could cheat if anyone wanted to cheat it would take a while to hack in the game and it takes a long time i bet

I think the most important thing when making a game, is making sure no one can cheat. WHich is infact very very hard, but im sure if it was made into the engine of the game, then it could work. Like if you change anything then the game wont work.. THAT would be cool !

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"So I guess I changed some. Sometimes I wonder if I've changed so much my wife is even gonna recognize me whenever it is I get back to her. And how I'll ever be able to, to tell her about days like today. Ah, Ryan...I don't know anything about Ryan and I don't care. The man means nothing to me. He's just a name. But if you know, going on to Ramelle and finding him so he can go home, if that earns me the right to get back to my wife, well then, that's my mission."

Contradiction number one: 'Or do you think you are so 'good' at the game that you could believe anyone beatable, no matter what their ability at it?'

So ability is a question now? I thought no one had any ability...

I based my question on your criteria, obviously. Either that or I'm brain damaged. Sheesh.

Contradiction number two: 'a) it's a remarkably accurate simulation and b) the rules we play by simulate real life involvement in air combat. '

Talking about Ilyushin2 here, not MoH.


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I resemble that remark. Excellent post Jonesy.

"Secondly, you see you're doing it again. One minute you come out with a statement that makes me think that perhaps you are an experienced and decent player (at any game) but then you go and ruin it."

Allow me to translate that...when I say something you agree with I'm an experienced and decent player. When I say something that gets up your nose I'm just a sore loser.

Mmm. UYA. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

So if it wasn't an aimbot I saw these miracle snipers using, what was it? I'm to believe that these guys can run around, zoomed-in, and hit moving targets consistently? Can they also nail jello to the ceiling of a moving train? Snort. Your faith, belief or whatever you want to call it, that all these super-snipers are running on pure skill is disturbing. Are you a born-again-christian by any chance? They think Jesus is back on earth performing miracles too.

You are correct in one of your half-assertions...I am a VERY experienced gamer, and I can sniff-out bad code and cheats as easily as a bloodhound would smell half a pound of bear-shit stuffed up it's nose.

When will you understand that a human being can do with the code only what is PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE TO DO WITH THE CODE? Why do you insist that a finite code is capable of infinite permutations? If code was as variable as real life it would be called the frigging MATRIX and we'd all be laying in baths of jello fragging the fuck out of each other 24/7.

IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO CONSISTENTLY SNIPE A MOVING TARGET WHILST MOVING YOURSELF, END OF STORY. IT CAN BE DONE BY LUCK BUT ANYONE DOING IT CONSISTENTLY, SHOT AFTER SHOT, IS FUCKING WELL CHEATING! NO HUMAN BEING POSSESSES THE ABILITY TO OVERCOME THE PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS OF THE BLOODY CODE, PERIOD!

If it could be done most players would be able to do it. Have you tried it? Do you really think ANY combination of human abilities would overcome the obstacles presented by the crude code in the game? A zoomed-in image with almost zero field of view and no depth. Zero peripheral vision. Magnified jerking and shaking as one runs. Target moving and jerking. No way to calculate lead because the code doesn't have a ballistics model any more complex than a laser line-of-sight. And other guys shooting and grenading the shite out of you, strange this super-sniper is somehow able to dodge the incoming shit-storm long enough to make his kill. And you think some players are able to overcome that? Large numbers judging by what I've seen.

Yeah, it's a pretty tall order by anyone's standard. Ever heard of Occum's Razor?

When I was in the FL we were asked what we wanted to be. Almost to a man every one of us replied "Sniper!" The NCO's laughed, and I still chuckle when I think back on it.

Consider then the reality...young kids dreaming of being The Hidden Death. But the code in their interface with the dream is crude. Snipers die fast because the game can't give them what a real environment gives a sniper...the only way to go super is to cheat.

So they cheat, and that's what I've been seeing. I actually saw a sniper jump from a window, fire as he was falling and hit his target. Skill? Please, don't insult my intelligence. What's left of it anyway. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

On to the other stuff...why is GameSpy so bad? All it does is list available servers, same as The All Seeing Eye I presume? http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Hello all,

I'd just like to say that while I was playing last night, I had Team Fortress flashbacks.

As I walked down the street in The Hunt, I was being sniped by a dude in the second storey of a building, while a medic...uh, I mean a soldier with a SMG shot at me. Someone also threw a grenade into the street.

It's as if I was trying to cross the bridge in 2fort4! Oh, and talk about TF snipers....I knew a guy that was so good that he could just about shut down all enemy offense, but luckily we were in the same clan. =)

Cheers,
Hannover

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS.SGW-Siggi:
IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO CONSISTENTLY SNIPE A MOVING TARGET WHILST MOVING YOURSELF, END OF STORY. IT CAN BE DONE BY LUCK BUT ANYONE DOING IT CONSISTENTLY, SHOT AFTER SHOT, IS FUCKING WELL CHEATING! NO HUMAN BEING POSSESSES THE ABILITY TO OVERCOME THE PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS OF THE BLOODY CODE, PERIOD!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NEO can http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz (1646-1716)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He is often described as the last universal genius: a thinker whose range extended to all that was known in his day.

" Although the whole of this life were said to be nothing but a dream and the physical world nothing but a phantasm, I should call this dream or phantasm real enough, if, using reason well, we were never deceived by it. "<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah? What hack does the wannabe use? http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

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I said I have seen it done, and with a consistency that becomes of practice (and er, I also said that a lot of moving-moving sniping is luck)

I didn't say I've seen someone do it every shot. If you have then perhaps you should stop running out into the street http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

In fact I saw Rigz do a moving target snipe, while moving himself, just now.

You said that it's impossible, unless one cheats. I denied that.

You write well, but read badly.

Your statements about your own experience (CS et al) were the ones that made me think you could at least say something to back up your claims. That was when I actually thought you made some sense.

I didn't agree or disagree with them, because they are claims, until I see other-wise.

But they were a lot more rational ones than 'No one can beat the code, man'.

I don't try to, I just have fun playing the game. If you want to examine the code and work it all out that way, that's your perogative, mate.

You still haven't given us your name http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif Did you want to play us or not?

All Seeing Eye is much more professional than Gamespy. By downloading it you'd be doing yourself a favour.

Main reasons why ASE is better:

* Scans all servers correctly, unlike Gspy which sometimes leaves player lists blank (more often than not actually).

* Has a much more intuitive user-interface for arranging server types and game types. Updates much faster, too.

* Buddy list that is always on, and searches all servers for the name constantly (unless you chose not to) - What this means is that you don't have to search the servers for that pokey little dot that Gspy gives you to show a buddy playing. Plus, as ASE scans properly you'll never miss a buddy.

* Each server's nationality is marked, be it UK or Argentina.

* Very competent filtration system. The country, players, ping, bots etc etc can all be filtered in, or out. Want a european server? Easy. Want an Albanian one? Just as easy.

There's more to it, but those are the main reasons I prefer it over Gspy. I'd download it as soon as you could.

You don't have to http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif You can carry on using Gspy if you like, not my loss.

Siggi says: >How about washing windows, does that require skill? Or peeling an orange?<

But of course they both require skill! If you don't believe me, try this experiment.

1. Go buy a bottle of your favorite hard liquor.

2. Hide the car keys.

3. Drink the bottle.

4. Peel the orange, or wash the windows, or play MOH.

5. After recovering from your hangover, cut fingers (from peeling the orange) lacerated face and arms (from falling through the window) and being bailed out of jail (for shooting the computer) post your conclusions on this forum.

If you have honestly completed these steps, you will have proven to yourself (at great cost) that skill is involved in each of the activities you mentioned.

I'll just buy the bottle and drink,
thanks http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by SoLiDUS (edited January 05, 2002).]

I said it was impossible to do it consistently unless one is cheating. There's luck obviously.

Now I have to wonder...if a player knows it's impossible to do it consistently, why would he choose to arm himself with a sniper rifle and run around like a storm-trooper with it? Unless he knows he's got special powers and can adequately defend himself with it?

I introduced DiD into online simming and I guess I play with a particular kind of mind-set; I try to keep it 'real'. I don't assault buildings with a Panzerschrek. I don't bunny-hop. And I don't use a sniper rifle on a map the size of a small park. People who do piss me off, I have to admit. Especially when they consistently run and hit while zoomed-in...cheating in other words, per my posts above.

If you want to play like a sci-fi prick, piss off and go play quake. Stop invading every new frigging game and turning it into a kiddy's circus.

Ahem.

I don't read you say? So you do? If so, why are you still asking me for the name of my server when I posted it last night along with a time and invite to come play?

We will never agree on this subject. You want to believe the impossible is possible in these types of games, I just call a cheat a cheat. Do you really think a cheat would fess up anyway? Catch one out, what's he gonna say..."Fair cop guv, take me away."? Of course not. He'll spin you a line of bullshit a mile wide, how he's been "practicing for weeks" with the sniper-rifle, how he "just happens to have the knack" or how he's "got this real incredible mouse". I've heard all the BS and lies more times than I can remember. I've seen aimbots and hacks in use more times than I can remember. And I've seen cheats using the sniper rifle in impossible situations to kill in MoH.

Nobody, fighting within the limitations of this game, would willingly choose the sniper rifle unless he knew he had an edge. It's a stand-off weapon, and on the two current maps there is NO room to stand off. But with a hack? No worries. You get to have your cake and eat it...just what a cheat lives for.

Server name: Siggi's UK DSL CPR

I'll turn it on shortly, so come get me. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hotspur:
Siggi says: >How about washing windows, does that require skill? Or peeling an orange?<

But of course they both require skill! If you don't believe me, try this experiment.

1. Go buy a bottle of your favorite hard liquor.

2. Hide the car keys.

3. Drink the bottle.

4. Peel the orange, or wash the windows, or play MOH.

5. After recovering from your hangover, cut fingers (from peeling the orange) lacerated face and arms (from falling through the window) and being bailed out of jail (for shooting the computer) post your conclusions on this forum.

If you have honestly completed these steps, you will have proven to yourself (at great cost) that skill is involved in each of the activities you mentioned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does acid count? Me and my bro did a nine-hour session on acid about a week ago and cleaned up. Hard liquor was also consumed, but I don't think it connected for obvious reasons. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/biggrin.gif



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Umm... How do you know they're zoomed in?
Are you watching their screen? Guess YOU'D be cheating then, and a great cheater at that! http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/wink.gif

Actually, I find the sniper rifle to be a great weapon without the scope. It does much more damage than the rifles in regular games, just a lower Rate of Fire.