[quote="Low spark":d94b6]A very wise man once said to me, "It's not you that must to believe in god, but god who must to believe in you."
This is the statement I base my beliefs on.[/quote:d94b6]

that's a good point.

what probably riles me the most about religion is that a good person who helps everyone, gives to charity, etc. but does not believe in God is said to go to hell for being a non-believer but a religious murderer can ask a priest to forgive him and he gets heaven, WTF?

[quote="Low spark":34bff]A very wise man once said to me, "It's not you that must to believe in god, but god who must to believe in you."
This is the statement I base my beliefs on.[/quote:34bff]
edit*
It's not you that must believe in god, but god who must believe in you."
edit*

I try to remeber one of my favorite quotes and I screw it up. Sorry, it sounds better when I get right.

i think it's a lot more complicated than simply "controlling the ingnorant masses" I think that every religion was made up not to control people, but to explain what cant be explained. Back when christianity was being born, our lives and ways of thinking were much simpler. Christians believe in heaven and hell. If you are good, you go here, if your bad, you go here. A very simplistic view, a sign of the times. As you go back further, native indians who inhabited the americas in 20000AD believe in moon gods, sun gods, etc. This is even a more simplistic view than before. I think religion is a way of soothing the minds of people. But your right, the people who dont question and act like sheep and believe what they are taught are victims of religion and society. After all, society as a whole beleives that you should believe in a god.

[quote:c0ade]Why do i not believe in it? Basically ive been through so much fucking shit in my life i have a hard time believeing there is one almighty jackoff in control of it all. Religion = a load of fuck,[/quote:c0ade]

So you have had a hard life? Becuase you have had a hard life you believe there is no God? What about the poor people in Africa who recieve Christ, and the ones who die for Him, I do not hear them complaning. Do not be mad at God for your life, He could have put you in alot worse situation. Just make the best of it, if you accept Jesus, He will always be there for you, and you will always have someone to turn to. Why believe science? Science has to much of human input involved, read the Bible, just see how you feel at the end. You might say religious people are simple, but whats simple about accepting a free gift to be saved from external hell? There is but one way to Heaven, and thats through Jesus. Compare religions, read the Bible just see what you think. Many people are afraid to give up their life of fun to follow Jesus, but by giving up your sinful life for one to follow Jesus you will have a life that you have not to worry in, becuase there is no question where you are goig when you die. Also you will have alot more joy, becuase you will have Jesus in your heart.

ok, there IS a reason christianity is a BELEIF, you don't need to prove it through science, because no test is 100% correct. I do beleive in god, it wasn't proven through carbon-14 dating or whatever, i beleif that jesus came and dies for me, i researched through the bible (plus i go to a christian school) and have alot of christian uinfluence on me, so i took it upon myself to beleive. I hope those of you who haven't someday will.

I can testify to the fact that having Jesus in your heart does not bring you more joy. I truely, truely, believed in God and Jesus untill about a year ago when i had my confirmation, then i started questioning it all. Now, I am happier and enjoy life more, not because I have broken away from the commandments (i think most of those are great rules no matter what and i abide by most of them) but because I have came up with my own definition of meaning. To me Jesus or God doesnt give me meaning in life. I think that for someone to find meaning in their lives they need to do something to gain it. Playing sports, playing video games, being outdoors, being with my family and friends, and learning all give me meaning. I think that things like these put meaning into a life that in reality, when all is said and done, has no meaning at all. Our lifes are a minute fraction of time in an unimaginably small part of the universe, but it's my fraction of time. Im going to do something with it.

[quote="Duke_of_Ray":d6221][quote:d6221]Why do i not believe in it? Basically ive been through so much fucking shit in my life i have a hard time believeing there is one almighty jackoff in control of it all. Religion = a load of fuck,[/quote:d6221]

So you have had a hard life? Becuase you have had a hard life you believe there is no God? What about the poor people in Africa who recieve Christ, and the ones who die for Him, I do not hear them complaning. Do not be mad at God for your life, He could have put you in alot worse situation. Just make the best of it, if you accept Jesus, He will always be there for you, and you will always have someone to turn to. Why believe science? Science has to much of human input involved, read the Bible, just see how you feel at the end. You might say religious people are simple, but whats simple about accepting a free gift to be saved from external hell? There is but one way to Heaven, and thats through Jesus. Compare religions, read the Bible just see what you think. Many people are afraid to give up their life of fun to follow Jesus, but by giving up your sinful life for one to follow Jesus you will have a life that you have not to worry in, becuase there is no question where you are goig when you die. Also you will have alot more joy, becuase you will have Jesus in your heart.[/quote:d6221]

Spare me your bible thumping rhetoric. Religion = oOo: in my opinion and nothing you say or do is gonna change that.

[quote="Sgt Stryker":e1816]well, given my scientific background I cannot prove nor disprove the existance of God (or various Gods like early religions),
however science CAN DISPROVE a LITERAL INTERPRETETION of the Bible.

SO I say that man was created by evolution, but I do not deny that a higher being created evolution.[/quote:e1816]

Ditto.

Stryker's comment says it best...

[quote="White Rabbit":9fd3e][quote="Gothic_child180":9fd3e]Umm... Just guess at my religious status.[/quote:9fd3e]

satanism[/quote:9fd3e]

Accually no. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell or God or the Devil. More of an ateist that slightly supports wiccan.

It's all about believing. Some believe in God, some don't. But, he who doesn't believe shouldn't bother presenting all kinds of 'scientific' facts proving God does not exist. Same goes for the believers. There simply is not enough proof.

At this moment in time, man does not know all. So many things are still unexplained. Darwin's theory concerning evolution of mankind does not explain all. There still are many contingencies. Not only how we evolved, but also how we function, how the universe functions. Thinking we are close to knowing all, is being naïve. Until that moment (of knowing all) arrives, if ever, one can not deny the existence of a God, nor can one prove it. From a scientific point of view. The way I see it, I don't have a choice. There must be a higher being in control. Also, the moment we know all there is to know, we become Gods ourselves. But I think we never will.

Consider this, what was going on before the Big Bang? Many scientists may have some kind of explanation, but they do not know for sure. If there was nothing, there was no God either, but then again, is our definition of 'nothing' correct? I guess 'nothing', 'never', etc. are relative concepts for humans. Example: Present day facts were mysteries in the Dark Ages. We still might think some things are not 'there', but if we do not know all, how can we be sure? The universe is filled with mysteries. Even for us 'intelligent' modern humans. We do not even know where and how the universe ends. All we know is that it is still expanding. Therefore, 'end' is a relative term as well. So is the ending of a human's life?

I'm not overly religious, but I'd like to believe there's a higher power.

When I'm at my 11th hour and about to sign off from this world, I know my final breath will be to give God the go-ahead to take me home.

[quote="Sgt Stryker":3c06a]well, given my scientific background I cannot prove nor disprove the existance of God (or various Gods like early religions),
however science CAN DISPROVE a LITERAL INTERPRETETION of the Bible.

SO I say that man was created by evolution, but I do not deny that a higher being created evolution.[/quote:3c06a]

Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. I believe in evolution and God. I do not think the bible is a literal work, but unfortunately, most of the times that people quote the bible, it is out of its true context. This is a work that has been passed down for thousands of years, first by oral traditions and later writen by scores of humans. Then it had to be traslated, again by humans, and many times to suit a particular persons needs. Science has proved that, historically, the bible is accurate. If you want to know the true literal meaning of the bible, you need to know the historical background. The vast majority of those that quote the bible dont. And its a complete work, not a sound bite. "An eye for an eye" was thrown out the door by "turn the other cheek" but people remember what is convenient.

Now, to the science part. Can you prove the beginnings of life on this planet with science? What was the catalyst that jump started life? How did the universe begin? Big bang? Yeah right. So you can disprove a few things from the bible. Fine, but can you prove anything about our beginnings with science? The answer is no. There are thoeries, but most have about as much proof as religion. Thats why it is called faith.

So are laws.

Laws were written for the proper functioning of society, because we all know
most people won't follow the Golden Rule, which is about the only real "law"
we need. In other words, I agree with your last post... but I disagree about
the first in regards to science having as much factual evidence about the world
as the "good book": should I write an essay about it or will you look it up using
Google ? :-P

Another thought that has occured to me: although not exactly accurate, it
does have some comical value so here goes...

If the world consisted entirely of bible thumping believers, we wouldn't have
the ability to communicate together on this forum: we would lack computing
devices!

biggrin:

Bottom line - believe what you want to believe. But I cant understand why some people are so threatened by other peoples beliefs that they feel the need to bash them. Its stereotyping, and it will get you into the same kind of problems with religion that it will with everything else. There is an endless list of heros, and conquerers and otherwise great people that have just been called simple minded because they had religion. Blanket statements dont work.

Akk.

Dont confuse all relition with bible thumpers. I hate extremists on both sides.

And why wouldnt we have computing devices? Science isnt evil.

Science can, to an extent, explain where we have been, but not where we came from.

Law and religion have been intertwined since prerecorded history.

[quote:5fe41]Science can, to an extent, explain where we have been, but not where we came from. [/quote:5fe41]

Sure it can: it clearly says how atoms came together to form all we see
around us. How that matter came, though, is the only unknown keeping
religions alive... for the moment.

Sure it can: it clearly says how atoms came together to form all we see
around us. How that matter came, though, is the only unknown keeping
religions alive... for the moment.[/quote:bb45c]

But back to that beginning, it cant explain it. The matter has no orgin, and how did it become alive? Even if just for the moment, I stand by my statement. yo uhave to have as much faith to believe exclusively in science as you do to believe in religion.

[quote="CaP bUsTa":d013a] Our lifes are a minute fraction of time in an unimaginably small part of the universe, but it's my fraction of time. Im going to do something with it.[/quote:d013a]

Amen.

biggrin:

As for believing science or religion... I'm much more inclined to believe science.

If it were not for science then we'd still be living in caves rubbing sticks together.

Science has provided more good and beneficial things than religion ever has.

Certainly, science has also produced many bad things and, because of it, we are slowly killing our planet.

But if you look at how science has enabled humans and animals to live longer, curing diseases, and so on, then compare it to what religion has brought us over 2000+ years...

Religion breeds dispute, hatred, killing, murder just as much as it provides inner peace.

Sure, it's nice to think a lost familly member is going to a nice place, but I'd much rather have them still alive because of an amazing scientific break-though and I'd much rather a world without all the religious conflict.

God supposedly gives us life then takes it away at will. We are supposed to accept that, but we aren't we are trying to stop it through science. God must be pretty upset at that, then I suppose?

God has supposedly made us flawed because of the mistakes made by one couple at the creation of man. Only when we all act in his name will be again become immortal and live in paradise. Gee thanks.

So, let me get this straight... God gave us mortality and disease, death and pain. Science tries its best to take that away.

Which do I prefer? Hmm, tough one that. I think I'm more inclined to believe that we die due to the way genetical reproduction is finite, we feel pain because it is an in-built warning system and there is disease because we are not the only organisms on the planet and not all are benevolent.

The worst part of religion is the contradiction.

Not in the facts, as there are no facts in religion.

The contradiction comes from the behaviours of the religious people. Surely a pure-of-heart group of people who are at peace would not feel the need to convert others to a cause that they do not believe in.

Either by wheedling, bible-pushing, or in extreme circumstances, by force (sometimes with deadly force).

And, to a degree, Innoxx is right. Following religion is like following a shepherd.

Do we all not have our own will, our own wishes and our own lives?

Believe in what you want to, not what you are told to.

Religion was created when humans were very unevolved and very rustic. It was created when we were ignorant of many forces and realities.

Since we have learnt more and more about how we are, what we are made of and how we work, religious people still believe that we and every single atom on this planet (and I suppose the whole universe) were created by one immortal man that no one has ever seen. A man with a beard and who wears robes and lives on another plane.

Oh come on...

Why does science always have to be the antithesis of religion? Its not.

The church is corrupt because it is run by humans. That doesnt make religion bad. Wars would have happened just as surely with out religion. Its mans nature. Religion was just the excuse.

I would agree totally.

However, science does a lot to disprove a lot of aspects of religion and many religious people dislike that.

Examples?

We are still ignorant of many forces and realities. Thinking we are not is being naïve. Wo do not know all. I personally believe we're not even close. I also believe the human mind is capable of so much more than we know of at this time. We will evolve further. Too bad I will not be around the next 100,000,000 years. Maybe we (mankind) will not even survive that long.

Why generalize religion? Surely you are being sarcastic about the robe and beard, that's what they tell children.


And like I said before, many words are very relative to man. The 'universe' for example. The definition of universe is everything. Things, places that are not discovered yet are not part of that universe. According to science, God might not exist. Thus not part of the universe. Science also says: The universe has an edge. We don't know what happens on the edge. Only thing we know is that it is expanding at the edge. It expands into the 'thing' that not exists yet. And becomes part of the universe. Nothing turns into part of the everything. Does that mean the nothing did not exist until then? But if didn't exist, how could it become something?

Things like this are the reason for the existence of religion. A zillion years ago it was because we did not understand what a thunderstorm was all about (and even nowadays we can not completely comprehend and predict the nature of a thunderstorm), at this moment it is because we do not understand the universe. What's next? We don't even understand eachother.

And, okay then, we're back to the basis of religion: Faith. Whether you like it or not: Everybody is a believer. Either you believe in a God/higher being/etc. or you don't believe. A disbeliever? No. You're not sure are you? So you are a believer too. You believe there's nothing there. Believe because you can not be sure.

For me personally, I like a mix. I tend to be more scientific than religious. But there is also a place for religion in my life. But it is my own personal religion. I don't need a church to tell me what is wrong or right. Like pest said, the church is corrupt. Because of the humans who run it.

I will not argue with you Atheists or whatever you are that doesn't beileve in God, because it is no use. Nor, you should not argue with me because it wil not change my mindset of there is a God and a Christ and I will go to Heaven when I die.

I pity the non-beileves of this board because they miss the major things that Christianity has changed (ever heard of A.D and B.C?). Pretty much all of the places where major events occur in the bible can be found as historical monuments today. Care to find me another religion that has a Bible or something like it and name a place that is a historical monument?

Now the non-beilevers will come back with ''Oh yeah, someone could of just made up all the stories and put them where they wanted to'' well isn't that pretty simplistic of YOU guys? Let's face it; Atheism is the most simplistic religion (If you can call it a religion) and the non-beilevers are the most simplistic of all. You see, the non-beilever/Atheist group goes like this: You are born, your life is crap, you die. The end. WOAH! That's REALLY COMPLICATED!

Christianity goes like: Your Father in Heaven creates you, your life isn't all that bad, you die, you meet Peter, are you good or bad? Go to Heaven, get to see God, spend eternity with him, live an eternity of peace, or, go to Hell, live an eternity of torture and fire. (I know alot of people here that will go into that second category)

I bet you could take two people, Athiest and a Christian, both in weelchairs and both have some kind of disability. You ask wich of the two is a happier person, and I'll bet it's the Christian over the Athiest anyday. Because the Christian knows where he is going after death. And that soothes him. The Athiest is scared and has NO hope because he knows when his life is over, it's over. Done.


(And please don't stereotype us as crazy extremists that drink Sarin and dance to hillbilly music, I hate that. Actually, don't stereotype us at all. Thanks.)

[quote="Vance1"]
Go to Heaven, get to see God, spend eternity with him, live an eternity of peace, or, go to Hell, live an eternity of torture and fire. (I know alot of people here that will go into that second category)

hey man, u should say that "u know ppl here who are going to hell" b/c u dont. Every person here @ the forums, in the world, have a "chance" to change their lives, but of course thats up to them to decide if they want to or not. So to say that their going to hell is just plain wrong. Hence the term "Saved"

shouldn't*

[quote:43c6b]Spare me your bible thumping rhetoric. Religion = in my opinion and nothing you say or do is gonna change that.
[/quote:43c6b]

By doing my "biblethumping", I am trying to show you a way to be spared from enternity in Hell. I can not save you, you can not save yourself, nobody but Jesus can save you. Why not just reda the Bible? Just read it, just see if it makes sense, are you afarid to read it? Doi not be afraid, God wanst us to accept Him, for your own sake believe.

As for Capbusta, it is really sad that you have pushed God away, but remeber God loves you and He will always forgive you if you dicide to come back.

gtboys thats teh coollest sig ive ever seen

[quote="[DAS REICH] Blitz":898fc]gtboys thats teh coollest sig ive ever seen[/quote:898fc] yeah man, im new to the sig making crap, my next 1 is gonna be phat. Im gonna start on it 2night

Duke, don't ask them to read the bible, because 99% percent of the time they won't get what the crap is going on. The bible is a very complicated thing.

Yes, but the road they are on now at this moment idicates a road to Hell. Yes, they can be saved, but as of right now, if they die, they will go to Hell.

Are you one of God's henchmen? You know who goes to hell? No. That's what I hate about the church as well. Say 100 'Hail Maries' and you're saved. Easy eh?

I don't believe it works that way. I believe (believe because I am not sure) that if God exists, he will not punish a non-believer that has lived a good life by sending him or her to hell.

I bet you are most likely one of them Christians who actually thinks he is better off and a better person because he is such a firm believer (wow, you pity atheists, very good). Go to church every Sunday, pray a lot and stuff. I have news for you. Thinking you are better than another human being is a sin. We are all equally of value. If you are not such a person, consider this to be a message for people who are. Because I have seen so many Christians who think they are better than the non-believer. It is those people who are most likely to use religion as an excuse for war. Win some souls for God. Because they think they are so right.

For an in depth discussion about this read this link from the Captain Obvious forum.

http://www.captain-obvious.com/forums/s ... readid=593

Why would I do that? We can have our own in depth discussion here. Why sniff other people's assholes if we can expose our own.

You know as well as I do that there are some people here that would go to Hell if they died today. I'm not going to name any names because they probably know who they are. I've never met a Christian that said they are better than the non-beilever. We aren't like that. I myself have NEVER said that I am better than a non-beilever. They are just misinformed. I'll bet there are some people who donate to charity every day that is a non-beilever. You jump to conlusions and say that I think myself as a better person than a non-beilever. That's hypocracy. Jesus says ''Treat everyone as you would like to be treated.'' I never treat someone with disrespect unless they show disrespect towards me. Making fun of something I beileve in is an insult towards me, and yes I will call someone who insults my religion a fool because they do not know the truth. I feel sorry for them as well.

Because the mental capacity of the some of the people on this forum is not enough to fill a glass of water.

Cough me cough

Yeah, people who view religious ideas like Vance are the reason we have holy wars in the first place. I know he's still a very young and naive person who has alot of lessons to learn so I'll leave him alone about that part.

I've been there, I was baptised Catholic, both sides of my family are devout Catholics, I went to Catholic schools, went to mass two times a week, read the bible on a nightly basis, confessed my sins regularly and even went on a Religious pilgrimage in The Philippines. When my life started to hit the shitter I prayed to Jesus and kept the faith hoping that God would help out in one way or another. One day though, I thought real hard about it all and I just said "fuck it, fuck all this religious shit. People get killed on a daily basis for their religious beliefs, I'm not dying for an invisible man that doesn't do shit for me."

So from that day on I live for myself and the people I care about. I threw away all my rosaries, crosses; anything religion related. For now, I couldn't be more content. I have a roof over my head, food on the table and a love in my life. I am essentially, free. So thinking back I've realised that religion is just a waste, you just simply have to live for yourself.