I agree with you in saying that GW didn't win, but I don't agree that Kerry really won either. I think that, having just watched recaps on some things I missed, that they ended up pretty even. Neither really had a knockout, nor did either really fall apart on anything. I have a feeling that the debates are going to be too close to call the election.

EDIT:: Also, if by Youth Centered Liberal Elitism, you mean the current idea that it's "cool" to be a Liberal thanks to sites like PunkVoter and MoveOn, then we definitely agree. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it.

deal.

I hope they both get murdered by a man with a siamese cat's head for a head.

Bush kept on the topic of Iraq most of the time because that is what most of the questions were about! Shit. Also, Bush showing a little anger is not a bad thing. He also showed humor. He also didn't always speak so well. He may not have thought of the exact thing to say at the perfect time. IN SHORT: Bush acted human. He acted like a down to earth, genuine human being. He showed that he does not change his beliefs just to get elected, he stands his ground about everything he says. He does not shift.

And another thing, Bush was completely right about Bi-Lateral talks with North Korea. Kerry mentioned that we need to cover all the issues with them, he even mentioned talks about the DMZ. WTF? The DMZ? when was the last time North Korea violated the DMZ? And they have never majorily violated it. Why bring that up.

The fact is that most of the people on this forum that can vote (here, not Canada, btw) have already made up their minds. The 17% or so of the population that are waiting on the debates to decide are not waiting to here how the canidates stand on certain issues. They already know that. They are waiting to see how the Canidates act. Kerry showed himself as a arrogant dick just by the way that he was standing and adressing the audience. He had his back straight and his head cocked to one side. He "over" talked. He directly avoided several questions. Bush, on the other hand, looked directly into the camera. He leaned forward, intently directing his message at the peoply watching on TV. Yes, He showed some anger, but that just proved how stongly his convictions are. You have to feel very stongly about something to allow yourself to show anger in something as important as this debate. Bush showed us that he knows where he stands.

I agree that it was very close. I think my point was that Kerry "looked better" and to the likely majority of Americans, thats more important than the issues that were debated. I'm not discrediting the American people's intelligence, but I am saying that perception is 20/20.

not to mention liberal MTV and the actors/singers that scream "I am voting for Kerry. Do the same to be cool......ps buy my albums"

[quote:2b8b3]not to mention liberal MTV and the actors/singers that scream "I am voting for Kerry. Do the same to be cool......ps buy my albums"[/quote:2b8b3]

LOL, so true

So you have no problem with all of the Pro Kerry supporters, yet limousine liberals piss you off ? Im sorry, they both have the right and obligation to state their opinion. Whether they are Pro Bush Or Pro Kerry.

http://edition.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/resul ... ntent.html

jesus fucking christ..owned oOo:

[quote="Short Hand":11a30]So you have no problem with all of the Pro Kerry supporters, yet limousine liberals piss you off ? Im sorry, they both have the right and obligation to state their opinion. Whether they are Pro Bush Or Pro Kerry.[/quote:11a30]I never said they're wrong to state their opinions. I'm just saying that MTV leans to the left when it comes to politics and celebrities. you can't deny that MTV shows liberal views.

"Politically-charged music," aka anything that bashes George Bush, has become the "cool" new thing to do. What I guess irritates me is that this music tends to get a HUGE amount of play time because all the 13-15 year olds call the radio station ten times an hour requesting the songs. These kids have NO clue what they are talking about, and just think it sounds cool. The next thing you know, you are listening to the radio or watching TV and this kind of thing is everywhere and you'd think that it's because it reflects the majority of the population. But in fact, it's being driven by an extremely narrow demographic that can't even vote.

[quote="Short Hand":47fb1]So you have no problem with all of the Pro Kerry supporters, yet limousine liberals piss you off ? Im sorry, they both have the right and obligation to state their opinion. Whether they are Pro Bush Or Pro Kerry.[/quote:47fb1]

I didn't say ANYTHING about the diplomats being Liberal. They could be Facist for all I care. I was just driving my point that the UN is an international pissing contest and a waste of time.

That has nothing to do with people linking to polls in the PunkVoter and MoveOn.org forums whatsoever.

[quote=Coleman]I never said they're wrong to state their opinions. I'm just saying that MTV leans to the left when it comes to politics and celebrities. you can't deny that MTV shows liberal views.[/quote:a9894]

so, fox news pours out conservative views, I really fail how you see the liberal media having some sort of advantage. + From what I have seen of mtv, i hardly would consider it a propagANDA for the liberal agenda.

besides green days american idiot. I hardly see that much politically charged pro kerry music. FOX news is a much bigger problem then this. Any network that gives a guy like O Reilly air time si out of touch.

[quote="Short Hand":3e3ad][quote=Coleman]I never said they're wrong to state their opinions. I'm just saying that MTV leans to the left when it comes to politics and celebrities. you can't deny that MTV shows liberal views.[/quote:3e3ad]

so, fox news pours out conservative views, I really fail how you see the liberal media havign some sort of advantage. + From what I have seen of mtv, i hardly would consider it a propagANDA for the liberal agenda.[/quote:3e3ad]

Conservatives have Fox News. Liberals have CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, MTV, VH1, Comedy Central, etc etc.

Don't try and give me any lines about the media being balanced.

A poll done by an amazingly libral media corporation. But, the people that voted in that were obviosly biased.

a quick google search, I found a ton of poll still ongoin for the first debate between Al Gore and George Bush oOo:

And, interesting: http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/ ... guest.html

^^^

Yes that’s pretty much the gist of what I'm talking about. Even more so, the "elitism" stems from our nations youth focusing their energy not on being pro-Kerry, but on being anti-Bush.

You aren't hip unless you like Michael Moore and hate GW Bush. Do we see this with young conservatives? I have yet to see an "anti-Kerry" rally or march or walk organized in Detroit. We started talking about this the other night because in one of the parks downtown there is a "Walk Against Bush."

Maybe it’s because liberals are typically younger and more mobile than conservatives. But honestly, I'm sick of all the negativity. Isn't that just slightly hypocritical? Traditionally, we think of liberals being the caring, concerned, compassionate people who strive for social equality and fairness. So how do the anti-government/bush protests fit into that mold?

I could keep going, but I'm too tired to write much more. The point is this; being supportive of your parties platform and candidate seems to be the logical step towards change. Why waste time bashing? In that same vein, why use the bashing as propaganda to form elitist and superior factions? It doesn’t seem to follow what would be considered traditional liberal values.

[quote=Noctis][quote="Short Hand":13f2e]so, fox news pours out conservative views, I really fail how you see the liberal media havign some sort of advantage. + From what I have seen of mtv, i hardly would consider it a propagANDA for the liberal agenda.[/quote:13f2e]

Conservatives have Fox News. Liberals have CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, MTV, VH1, Comedy Central, etc etc.

Don't try and give me any lines about the media being balanced.[/quote:13f2e]



are you fucking kidding me ?

CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC.. Liberal ? what is this some sort of conspiracy thoery against the conservative America ? gimme a break man. Your turning into a paranoid Rumm's here.

UMMMM, CBS is easily one of, if not the most liberal media outlet around... you're the one thats out of touch. The others definitely lean left, especially MSNBC.

[quote:ebb32]we think of liberals being the caring, concerned, compassionate people who strive for social equality and fairness. So how do the anti-government/bush protests fit into that mold? [/quote:ebb32]

so opposing a unjustified, unneccesary war is not fitting in with the stereotype you just claimed ? Anti-War = Anti Bush, Bush = War In Iraq. Simple connection really. gaurentee if Gore were in office, their would be no "War In Iraq" right now.

[quote="Short Hand":5d3d1][quote:5d3d1]we think of liberals being the caring, concerned, compassionate people who strive for social equality and fairness. So how do the anti-government/bush protests fit into that mold? [/quote:5d3d1]

so opposing a unjustified, unneccesary war is not fitting in with the stereotype you just claimed ? Anti-War = Anti Bush, Bush = War In Iraq. Simple connection really. gaurentee if Gore were in office, their would be no "War In Iraq" right now.[/quote:5d3d1]

why did you bring up iraq? you've missed the point... I'm shocked.

[quote="Short Hand":382a9][quote=Noctis][quote="Short Hand":382a9]so, fox news pours out conservative views, I really fail how you see the liberal media havign some sort of advantage. + From what I have seen of mtv, i hardly would consider it a propagANDA for the liberal agenda.[/quote:382a9]

Conservatives have Fox News. Liberals have CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, MTV, VH1, Comedy Central, etc etc.

Don't try and give me any lines about the media being balanced.[/quote:382a9]



are you fucking kidding me ?

CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC.. Liberal ? what is this some sort of conspiracy thoery against the conservative America ? gimme a break man. Your turning into a paranoid Rumm's here.[/quote:382a9]

oOo: Do you get these channels where you live? Have you ever read the USA Today? Believe me, they swing hard left. There was a website that I remember seeing linked during the 2000 election that matched quotes from CNN anchors and personas that were verbatim or nearly verbatim from DNC press releases.

So now your claiming to be the out spoken minority ? please. You do know companies LIKE General Electirc own these companies. Would it not be in the best intrest of a company who manufacters arms for the military to not promote a agenda which will allow them to manufacter more arms ? Thus motivating them to promote a conservative agenda ?. They are not left wing bias.

[quote="Short Hand":c1c46][quote:c1c46]we think of liberals being the caring, concerned, compassionate people who strive for social equality and fairness. So how do the anti-government/bush protests fit into that mold? [/quote:c1c46]

so opposing a unjustified, unneccesary war is not fitting in with the stereotype you just claimed ? Anti-War = Anti Bush, Bush = War In Iraq. Simple connection really. gaurentee if Gore were in office, their would be no "War In Iraq" right now.[/quote:c1c46]

If Gore had been in office, we'd probably have more burning buildings while he's still trying to fix things with hugs.

After the vote in November, how long afterwards until everyone knows who won?

[quote=Bleuachdu]so opposing a unjustified, unneccesary war is not fitting in with the stereotype you just claimed ? Anti-War = Anti Bush, Bush = War In Iraq. Simple connection really. gaurentee if Gore were in office, their would be no "War In Iraq" right now.[/quote:d4158]

why did you bring up iraq? you've missed the point... I'm shocked.[/quote:d4158]

I didn't miss the point, don't [ull a tgb, i was simply concentrating on that single statement. Now im off to bed, i have to ref a grade 9 hockey for 5 hours straight tommrow.

wallbash:

[quote="Short Hand":d1530]So now your claiming to be the out spoken minority ? please. You do know companies LIKE General Electirc own these companies. Would it not be in the best intrest of a company who manufacters arms for the military to not promote a agenda which will allow them to manufacter more arms ? Thus motivating them to promote a conservative agenda ?. They are not left wing bias.[/quote:d1530]

Holy shit, I don't want this to end in flaming, because you and I tend to do so due to your absolute REFUSAL to even TRY to acknowledge facts.

But please, please, drop the television issue. You clearly have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

[quote="Short Hand":0fe03]So now your claiming to be the out spoken minority ? please. You do know companies LIKE General Electirc own these companies. Would it not be in the best intrest of a company who manufacters arms for the military to not promote a agenda which will allow them to manufacter more arms ? Thus motivating them to promote a conservative agenda ?. They are not left wing bias.[/quote:0fe03]i never knew that about GE. But what you said would make sense in words. But face it, the company doesn't impose conservative thoughts. Just watch it.

[quote="Short Hand":763ef]So now your claiming to be the out spoken minority ? please. You do know companies LIKE General Electirc own these companies. Would it not be in the best intrest of a company who manufacters arms for the military to not promote a agenda which will allow them to manufacter more arms ? Thus motivating them to promote a conservative agenda ?. They are not left wing bias.[/quote:763ef]

you're a lost cause, "death to corporate america" right? good luck changing the system and teaching any corporation social responsibility with your militant mentality. oh wait I forgot, you don't live here and you can't vote. how responsible are canadian corps these days?

this thread is drifting

[quote="Short Hand":ab858][quote=Bleuachdu]why did you bring up iraq? you've missed the point... I'm shocked.[/quote:ab858]

I didn't miss the point, don't [ull a tgb, i was simply concentrating on that single statement. Now im off to bed, i have to ref a grade 9 hockey for 5 hours straight tommrow.[/quote:ab858]

enjoy your sleep. tomorrow you can explain how concentrating on one of my sentences made iraq jump into your head, I've got my own ideas on that one.

He's trying to use a straw man argument to bolster his claims. Lemme bring up Iraq, then tear it down, and indirectly tear down your other claims - lame.

Fact of the matter is SH is a google-expert. Nothing more. Foxnews is by no means afraid of hiding the partiality of its pundits - but that doesnt mean they dont lay into who they feel the need to. However for anyone to even think the media doesnt have a left bias is a fucking moron. I will have to grab what newspaper ran the story but the media swings DECIDEDLY to the left.

As for the debates - Bush and his handlers set this up first. Why? So they can get the touchy issue of Iraq out of the way FIRST and not have the debates END on this sour note. For all you dancing that Bush got "owned" realize this is part of Bush Cos strategy and reflects an understanding of the American publics viewing mentality. Senator Kerry used ALL his ammo on this debate. Theres not much the President can fire back thats not a soundbite. But when it comes to DOMESTIC policy - well theres where the Senator has a few holes in his story, whether its accussing the President of supporting out-sourcing (which has helped the US), whether its claiming wages are down, whether its claiming that his health care plan its the best - these are things Kerry is going to be jumped on.

In any case, Kerry may have come out looking strong but the MAJORITY - yes thats right block head - the MAJORITY of Americans support the war on terror, and damn near 70% of Americans believe they are safer BECAUSE of the actions of the admin.

Oh and that once safe spot of the economy - whod handle it better - the candidates are virtually tied. That is NOT a good sign for the Senator. Not at all.[/i]

Did you see at the beguinning how when they went to shake hands bush like ran towards him, while kerry just slowly walked there.

I think Bush did a great Job, and what pissed me off about Kerry, is that he kept saying that like 90% of casualties were Americans .. when that is not even true .. what about the allies, and locals that died, I think it was about 790 non american that died.

Well .. I hope Kerry looses, I don't want a pussy as a President.

[img]http://img40.exs.cx/img40/5687/Flameopoly.jpg[/img]

LOL

How does this system work at present? Most people pay directly for their health care/hospital bills out of pocket, unless they have insurance, right?
In the case of insurance, do plans cover some or all of the costs? Or does it depend on the plan? Are Medicare and Medicaid government sponsered programs for the poor/uninsured?

My brother-in-law is a doctor in the US, but he never wants to talk about this shit, one thing he says is that people get help faster in the States, but that poor/uninsured people suffer, do you agree with that?...