Thank you for respecting my opinion Easy, instead of blurting out crap like Blade.. And did you guys read Partisans post yet? I really helps me out in my case.. I am on my way to look up some ww2 stuff, hopefully find something that will prove me right..

thank you for proving my point Von Paulus and Partisan.. Also WOW ITALY, the only major battle was the Gustav line, and you must remember Italy was the sorriest army out there.. Germany didnt have hundreds of divisons in Africa. Americans and British, Australians and Candians simply overan them. In Russia hundreds of Divisions of Germans were there, Russia pushed them back after Stalingrad all the way to Germany!

Caparzo the Aussies were in WW2, they were very good fighters but to my knowledge they didn't have big numbers. I think they did the main part of their fighting in northern Africa mainly near Egypt I believe. BTW what happened to Bürgen? Did he die in one of those reenactments of his.

I do think the British played a enormous role, although they did have misplaced trust in Monty, who all but wiped out the British 1st Airborne. Now, to the point at hand, the Russkies. They had only two things in their favor, numbers and winter. As I have come to understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, they also wasted conscripts, used them for clearing minefields and pointless rushes against the Krauts. The Russians didn't win because of skill, just numbers. The Krauts were better soldiers, and I have one figure to prove as such, Russkie dead: 6,115,000 wounded:14,012,000 Kraut dead : (est.)3,300,000 wounded : (est.) 4,605,000. This is from fighting on two fronts as well. This also proves someone's theory, I don't remember who, that the most killed isn't always the winning factor. AND FINALLY, the turning point of WWII was the opening of a second front, losing much needed men and material. Nooch.

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I told you I'd shoot, but you didn't believe me! WHY DIDN'T YOU BELIEVE ME?

[This message has been edited by Kraut Killer (edited July 25, 2001).]

MOre than half of those deaths Kraut are civilians... Russians did have superior numbers and such, but a lotta Russians that were killed were civilians.. Ya gotta remember to AMericans werent the best soldiers ever.. I really give props to British tho, there island will NEVER be invaded..
Hitler and Sealion, Spanish and the Spanish Armada, and some other battles i cannot think of.. I think Napolean tried to take Britian but he failed to.

Kaiser we learned in history class that someone did successfully invade Britian once. A long time before WW2 of course. If only I could remember the details. I remember this much because our teacher was an old British lady and we used to tease her about how the Britians sucked at war. (Which They don't). But she used to get mad and spend the rest of the class explaining why Britian lost a couple of battles but always won the war or something.

General Paulus' army, once 330,000 troops strong, had been uterly liquidated... The comment on the snow killing many troops was true, but what about malaria and malnutrition killing many of the Japanese that the Americans and Australians would face ?

The Red Army encircled 91,000 German troops in Stalingrad in one swift manuver and picked them off, one unit at a time...And you should also keep in mind how long the Russian front was...And, If the Russians hadn't kept the Germans at bay, many German troops would be free to go to the Western Front and overrun them....As for someones comment that the T-34 was like the Tiger, Hmmm, check your' facts, The first time the Germans encountered it, It wiped out 5 panzers and took 1 hour to destroy on one occasion...

You are right trick, the romans invaded and took over England for centuries.. but we are talking waaaay back in time http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/wink.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kraut Killer:
I do think the British played a enormous role, although they did have misplaced trust in Monty, who all but wiped out the British 1st Airborne. Now, to the point at hand, the Russkies. They had only two things in their favor, numbers and winter. As I have come to understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, they also wasted conscripts, used them for clearing minefields and pointless rushes against the Krauts. The Russians didn't win because of skill, just numbers. The Krauts were better soldiers, and I have one figure to prove as such, Russkie dead: 6,115,000 wounded:14,012,000 Kraut dead : (est.)3,300,000 wounded : (est.) 4,605,000. This is from fighting on two fronts as well. This also proves someone's theory, I don't remember who, that the most killed isn't always the winning factor. AND FINALLY, the turning point of WWII was the opening of a second front, losing much needed men and material. Nooch.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yet, Yet, again, I have to rest my case.

The Russians were the most disgraced army that Ive ever known.

Well, I have to say . I love that T-34 tank http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/wink.gif


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is it true that the russians strapped bombs to the backs of dogs and trained them to go and run under german tanks ?

Dude figure it out, the russians only held there own ground. They never helped in liberating anywere else and while russia had a lot of man power they were poorly armed. The americans actually went out there and helped in liberating some other countrys, of course it did take pearl harbor to piss the americans off to war. If it werent for pearl harbor the US would of probably left england fight it off.

Polaris if this is true then forget about what I said about the Red Army.

OK here is my 99cents worth, and it ALL comes out of books and veteran's mouths:

First off, the T34: The T34 was THE MOST produced tank of all of ww2, and all time, to say that it was like the tiger in that they couldn't produce it is COMPLETLY FALSE! This is why Surplus T34/85s cost only $7000 strait from russia.

Second, Afrika: Germany was the second to last country to get involved in afrika, then came the US, germany got involved in afrika because their ally, Italy, was getting their ass kicked by england and the former french, who had been there all along. US troops were nothing but glorified reenforcements for the brits. To say that the US landings in Afrika changed the outcome is false, Italy and germany were lossing anyway because of dwindleing supplies. Dare I mention Kasserine Pass?

Third: By May 1943 the emergency food stores in england were down to THREE WEEKS. The only reason that American and British people there made it past that was because of increased ROYAL NAVY ESCORTING of canadian convoys. Again, minimal involvement by the US.

Fourth: The US wouldn't have been in the war with germany if it weren't for japan. And even after that the American Congress refused to declare war on germany. The only reason that the US got involved in Europe was because Germany lived up to it's alliance with japan and declared war on america. So, the US didn't even WANT to get involved.

Fifth: Russia took more German occupied land than all of the US, England, France, and Post 1943 Italy COMBINED.

SEVENTY-SEVEN PERCENT OF ALL ARMED ENGAGEMENTS IN WWII WERE BETWEEN THE GERMAN AND RUSSIAN FORCES!

So, in conclusion, all of you who say that the US was the main force in winning the war, go read a damn book that isn't writen by an american publishing house, and realize that there is more to WWII than what your granfather told you when you were three years old.

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"Victory at any Price!"

SS-Panzergrenadier

I'm not sure if that's true, but they did have their conscripts link arms and run through minefields to clear them. And the Americans wereand are a great army, anyone who thinks differently and then bitches about people not knowing their history should shut the fuck up and hit the fucking books. Fucking bitches.

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I told you I'd shoot, but you didn't believe me! WHY DIDN'T YOU BELIEVE ME?

I'm not saying that the US wasn't a great boon to the allied war effort but there were armies out there that did much more in europe, remember, more than half of all american forces were commited to the Pacific.

Bürgen

is it true about those Russian kamakazi dogs ?

AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET U FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!! THANK YOU BURGEN! ILL DO ANYTHING U WANT... anything http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/wink.gif

LOl thanks for proving my point Burgen.. America shouldnt be so glorified the way they are in ww2.. Russia should

Polaris,

the reds did a lot of wierd and in-humane things. There are reports of that happening but not just with dogs, they would use members of Penal battalions, prisoners in the service of the military, as walking bombs, by simply straping a satchel charge on an telling them that they can be shot now, or take out some germans with them. In the later stage of the war, it was not uncommon for russian tankers to tie/chain german civilian prisoners to their tanks, so that german soldiers would be inclined to not shoot! And yet there have never been any war crimes filed against the red army.

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"Victory at any Price!"

SS-Panzergrenadier

[This message has been edited by Bürgen (edited July 25, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Polaris:
is it true that the russians strapped bombs to the backs of dogs and trained them to go and run under german tanks ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, I have a book that talks about it. They put explosives with a wooden stick facing straight up on the dogs back, the dogs ran under the enemy tanks (that's how it was planned anyway) and the stick was pushed back, causing the bomb to explode and destroy the tank. However, most of the time during actual combat the dogs ran away, or ran under their OWN tanks (that they were fimiliar with from training). A very poor idea to say the least.

I don't think Blade ans I were talking about the war in Europe Burgen. We were talking about the war in general. Who else fought the Japs in the Pacific? I don't care what the statistics say, it is just a strong opinion that the US did have a more important role then the Russians throughout the whole WORLD WAR, not Russian vs. Germany war. Atleast Russia was resourceful. walking bombs what a great yet sick idea.

Also, in Japan, the Japanese used men with satchel charges strapped to them. They hid until an American tank was very close to them, then they rushed out and dived under it, and pulled the chord to detonate the explosive. A much more successful idea then the Russian dogs, since the men waited until the tank was very close, this made it so the guarding infantry had little change of hitting the man before the tank was destroyed. A sick, yet somewhat successful idea.

Uh, you seen to forget that the US wasn't the only force fighting in the pacific, remember: England, New Zealand, Australia, Burma, and The People's liberation force of China (who by the way were supplied by germany http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/smile.gif). People seem to forget that whole indian ocean thing... you have probibly never heard of it, but the Royal Navy and the Imperial Japanese Navy were locked in mortal combat around india, Sri Lanka, And Madagasgar (I have NEVER seen an American book about this). And Remember, RUSSIA DID declare war on Japan! Who do you think captured Manchuria from the Japanese Empire?
RUSSIA!!!!
That is why China, N. Korea, And N Vietnam were COMMUNIST after the war!
Mein Gott, you guys need to Read a damn Book that isn't tainted by american propiganda!

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"Victory at any Price!"

SS-Panzergrenadier

[This message has been edited by Bürgen (edited July 25, 2001).]

Wow i never thought my first original post would stir up 4 pages of BITCHING! This post was to suggest ideas for another moh or a mod or something, definetly not to prove facts and cross examine each others quotes. I dont care about the real facts or wars that happened. Whats done is done and u guys cant do anything about it.Hitler was crazy Stallin was a madman and Winston Churchil was an inspiratin. That is all. please if u guys wanna argue with all this start a new post and leave this one alone, please. THANK YOU

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Wow i never thought my first original post would stir up 4 pages of BITCHING! This post was to suggest ideas for another moh or a mod or something, definetly not to prove facts and cross examine each others quotes. I dont care about the real facts or wars that happened. Whats done is done and u guys cant do anything about it.Hitler was crazy Stallin was a madman and Winston Churchil was an inspiratin. That is all. please if u guys wanna argue with all this start a new post and leave this one alone, please. THANK YOU

First of all, Americans played the most active role in Pacific theatar, they entered European theater only when russian Red Army started liberating Europe from Germans. As you know,Interestedviewer, or not, Russians were first to enter Berlin. Thus to do that they had to cross all of Europe up to Germany, and by doing that they liberated those parts of Europe.

On the other hand, many historians argue that U.S. entered European front only to counter the raising power of Soviet Union. As you know, prior to WW2 U.S. was very isolationist and it saw wars in Europe as 'wars in Europe'. But after the WW1 U.S. invested large amounts of capital in Europe, plus ever growing economy of U.S. needed new markets, so leaving Europe to Russians wasn't an option.

So what did U.S. do in WW2? It won war in Pacific ( mind you, by using two A-bombs), liberated Italy and France.
What did Russians do? They fought about 250 German divisions, while Allies fought 56. They pushed Germans all the way back to Germany and by doing that liberated most of Europe. They inflicted most of the casulties on Germans and also inflicted even greater psychological damage, Aryan race was defeated by inferior Slavs. Thus for Germans, everything after the Kursk and Stalingrad was retreating and defeat.

U.S. did contributed to WW2 by putting itself on the Allied side and bringing huge economic and military help to Allied cause, but we can't say that they won the war.Nobody is saying that U.S. wasn't capabled of doing just that, but the truth is that Russia was one nation that sacrificed most and one nation that did most to defeat Germany. Maybe the situation would be different if U.S. was closer to Germany and Russia farther,but that isn't the case.


SO YOU CAN'T SAY THAT U.S. WAS ONE NATION THAT WON THE WW2 ONLY BECAUSE YOU COME FROM U.S.. I KNOW THAT YOU LOVE YOUR NATION AND THINK BEST OF IT, BUT SIMPLY IN THIS CASE YOU WERE WRONG.

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"Sloboda ili smrt" ( Death or freedom)

Intrestedviewer, you're getting redundant.

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I told you I'd shoot, but you didn't believe me! WHY DIDN'T YOU BELIEVE ME?

wohoo!! Thank You Burgen!! America doesnt want to protray any1 else as hero's, they want to take ALL the glory.. You guys really need to read up before u blurt america did everything in the war..

BTW, Russia and Japan had been fighting on-and-off-again from 1901 (when the russo-japanese war broke out, it ended in 1905), when japan occupied the Kamchatka Peninsula and the Kuril Islands on the sea of Okhotsk, until WWII broke out in 1931(yes that's when WW2 started, not 1939, that's just when it started in Europe), when Japan invaded Manchuria. One of the forgotten theatres of WW1 was between Japan and Russia in the Asiatic portion of the country, even though you'll never see it in a History book at school, that's why it is 'forgotten'.

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"Victory at any Price!"

SS-Panzergrenadier



[This message has been edited by Bürgen (edited July 25, 2001).]

Hah! you can't beat shear facts!

Amerikanische Schweinhunde!

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"Victory at any Price!"

SS-Panzergrenadier

lol...are you calling us american pig-dogs ?

btw , thanks for that info man . maybe they'll consider adding those kamakazi dogs to the game as a secondary weapon . http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

scratch that idea . too unrealistic b/c they were only from russia

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Partisan:
First of all, Americans played the most active role in Pacific theatar, they entered European theater only when russian Red Army started liberating Europe from Germans. As you know,Interestedviewer, or not, Russians were first to enter Berlin. Thus to do that they had to cross all of Europe up to Germany, and by doing that they liberated those parts of Europe.

On the other hand, many historians argue that U.S. entered European front only to counter the raising power of Soviet Union. As you know, prior to WW2 U.S. was very isolationist and it saw wars in Europe as 'wars in Europe'. But after the WW1 U.S. invested large amounts of capital in Europe, plus ever growing economy of U.S. needed new markets, so leaving Europe to Russians wasn't an option.

So what did U.S. do in WW2? It won war in Pacific ( mind you, by using two A-bombs), liberated Italy and France.
What did Russians do? They fought about 250 German divisions, while Allies fought 56. They pushed Germans all the way back to Germany and by doing that liberated most of Europe. They inflicted most of the casulties on Germans and also inflicted even greater psychological damage, Aryan race was defeated by inferior Slavs. Thus for Germans, everything after the Kursk and Stalingrad was retreating and defeat.

U.S. did contributed to WW2 by putting itself on the Allied side and bringing huge economic and military help to Allied cause, but we can't say that they won the war.Nobody is saying that U.S. wasn't capabled of doing just that, but the truth is that Russia was one nation that sacrificed most and one nation that did most to defeat Germany. Maybe the situation would be different if U.S. was closer to Germany and Russia farther,but that isn't the case.


SO YOU CAN'T SAY THAT U.S. WAS ONE NATION THAT WON THE WW2 ONLY BECAUSE YOU COME FROM U.S.. I KNOW THAT YOU LOVE YOUR NATION AND THINK BEST OF IT, BUT SIMPLY IN THIS CASE YOU WERE WRONG.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I rest my (and Kaiser's) case... http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/smile.gif Thanks Partisan... BAND OF BROTHERS IS GONNA ROCK!!!

Ya know, all this shit about all Americans care about is taking all the credit is beggining to piss me off. America does exactly what all you fuckers are doing. Caring about their contribution is just fine, and you keep bitching that we don't know our history, FUCK THAT! To support the facts you use information derived from what your god damn countries did. Well, Britain did this, what about the Australians, the Germans only fought these guys, the Russians did this, it's not only Americans wanting to take credit, every one wants to know about their country's contribution, and in order to do that they try to negate what another country did, usually America. I find this perhaps more insulting than you whiny mother fuckers, because I never try to discredit you which all of you seem to fucking do to each other. All countries made their contributions, and you fuckers sit and bicker over whose country is better than America. British movies glorify what the British did, Russian movies for the Russians, etc. America isn't the worldly evil that only teaches about its own wheelings and dealings, no country gives a rat's ass about any other fucking country but the only one that gets the finger pointed at it is America. Of course Americans are going to want to learn about America, who doesn't want to learn about their own heritage, and why should we be held at a higher standard than any other country?

"Mein Gott, you guys need to Read a damn Book that isn't tainted by american propiganda"

Now we all no I don't read books, it was just an opinion, but you've sold me. I'm quite interested in your magazine and wish to subscribe. Anyways, I just thought that America played a more important role then you guys are portraying.

I dont give a shit what you guys say..

Russia is the most disgraced country in the war.. go read the books.. the allies didnt even like Russia, they just wanted the reds the keep them busy in the east..They murdered thousands of polish civilans/army personnal..

USA did a great part in WW2, the lend lease act with britain, the invasion of many countries... russia had a powerfull ally.. WINTER.. the russians were prepared for winter and the germans werent.. if the winter didnt come.. the germans would of kicked the shit outta stalin...

Far as im concerned, I have more respect for the germans then the russians..

I have a life and Im not going to keep arguing with you anymore..

Thats my opinion and nothing is going to change it..

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blade:
I dont give a shit what you guys say..

Russia is the most disgraced country in the war.. go read the books.. the allies didnt even like Russia, they just wanted the reds to keep them busy in the east..They murdered thousands of polish civilans/army personnal..

USA did a great part in WW2, the lend lease act with britain, the invasion of many countries... russia had a powerfull ally.. WINTER.. the russians were prepared for winter and the germans werent.. if the winter didnt come.. the germans would of kicked the shit outta stalin...

Far as im concerned, I have more respect for the germans then the russians..

I have a life and Im not going to keep arguing with you anymore..

Thats my opinion and nothing is going to change it..

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



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shit, messed up

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von Paulus:
General Paulus' army, once 330,000 troops strong, had been uterly liquidated... The comment on the snow killing many troops was true, but what about malaria and malnutrition killing many of the Japanese that the Americans and Australians would face ?

The Red Army encircled 91,000 German troops in Stalingrad in one swift manuver and picked them off, one unit at a time...And you should also keep in mind how long the Russian front was...And, If the Russians hadn't kept the Germans at bay, many German troops would be free to go to the Western Front and overrun them....As for someones comment that the T-34 was like the Tiger, Hmmm, check your' facts, The first time the Germans encountered it, It wiped out 5 panzers and took 1 hour to destroy on one occasion...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmm.. check YOUR READING..

My point was, the tiger and the t-34 were alike because they couldnt keep up the production.. well, I think the T-34 had more production then the tiger tank because of the germans short of a heavy bomber, resulting in the germans couldnt bomb russias industry affectivly..

The Americans shermans were massivly produced to the point were the ratio was 10 shermans vs 1 tiger... the tiger was very expensivie to create and germany didnt have to resources at the time to do that...


BTW - Before you say Russia is so great, you should read a book and realize Stalin killed more of his people then Hitler killed the jews.. Also, look at Russias history with there casualties, in WW1 they had the most casualties... and WW2, once again, had the most casualties..

Also in WW2, Russia murdered thouzands of polish civilians and army personal..

So I have no respect for Russia and never will, this is my opinion and you will never change it, Im not going to come back here and waste my time on this pointless debate..

Theres my 2 cents worth, yet again.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by intrestedviewer:
Dude figure it out, the russians only held there own ground. They never helped in liberating anywere else and while russia had a lot of man power they were poorly armed. The americans actually went out there and helped in liberating some other countrys, of course it did take pearl harbor to piss the americans off to war. If it werent for pearl harbor the US would of probably left england fight it off.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess some one has read there history correct, I give you an A+



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