hake:

Dude you are brainwashed, it reminds me of the Simpsons episode with the cult

Now stop sending me PMs I don't want to see the "light"

[quote="Duke_of_Ray":2f9c9][quote:2f9c9]few typos[/quote:2f9c9]

Yea, I can not type to good, probably should start using home row. :)

[quote:2f9c9]Unfortunately, that is your contention, and only a contingent truth.
Furthermore, I ask you to present this so-called evidence of a deity
or creational entity: I'm not honestly asking, because I know for a
fact that you cannot provide any factual / tangible evidence but just
humor me for a moment, if you can. [/quote:2f9c9]

YOu want ecidence of God's exsistance? Well just look ate the world, its tangible. How could everything get so complex with out s supreme beign creating it? How could have all the particles that where part of the "Big Bang", if that really happend, been formed all on their own? Also read the Bible, just give it a good read, look at all the prophecies Jesus met, no man has done something likke that. Another thing is, look at a person who is truly save by Jesus, look how much happier they are, and how content they are, and how their life changes. Ask God to help you see Him, He will be more than happy to do it.

[quote:2f9c9]OK, the bible says God is loving and forgiving. Therefore God must have created us because he loved us and care about us.....then he suddenly leaves us to fend for ourselves! (look at the state of the world around you) Then theres the concept of all those who does not believe about him or know him must suddenly go to hell to suffer eternal pain and damnation. Now what kind of caring and loving father would do that to his children and send them to eternal pain. Its simply ludricious. The whole concept of heaven and hell therefore to me is fake, you know how the church in the past has so clearly altered the bible mixing it with other pagan philosophies in order to fit their selfish needsn. This whole heaven and hell thing was in my opinion put in order to control the kings and queens from breaking away from the church.
I'm sure there something far more unique than "beleive in God and you will goto Heaven, dont beleive in God and you will burn in hell". Its jsut that the bible has been altered too much by man to gain power....as usual. [/quote:2f9c9]

Well, God does love us, and has not left us here to fend for ourselves. As for thoe who do not believe, then yes they do go to Hell, but you cannot say God does not love us, becuase He gives you an easy way to Heaven, just accept His son, Jesus. The Chruch has not always represented the true face of Christ, and thsi is really sad becuase of all the people they hurt. Now you might say, well some people never hear the message, well for tose people, I believe if they live justly they to will see Heaven. So like it or not there is a Heaven and there is a Hell, its up to you which one you choose to go to.[/quote:2f9c9]

you still havent answered my statement. How do you know there is a heaven or hell? If GOd loves humans why does he send them to hell for eternal pain. As I said the bible these past few centuries have been clearly changed by other pagan philosophies (for example trinity) how do you know all this thing is true. If the church has not represented the true face of christ than this whole thing aint true since nearly all we learnt was from the church.

[quote:ca727]you still havent answered my statement. How do you know there is a heaven or hell? If GOd loves humans why does he send them to hell for eternal pain. As I said the bible these past few centuries have been clearly changed by other pagan philosophies (for example trinity) how do you know all this thing is true. If the church has not represented the true face of christ than this whole thing aint true since nearly all we learnt was from the church. [/quote:ca727]


When I say the chruch has not always represented the true face of Christ, I am mainly speaking of the Catholic church in the Early days of Europe, cursedaes, how they tuaght people in the wrong way, and things like that. Most chruches do represent the true face of Christ, but if no Chruch did, you still have your Bible, the most important things for people. How do I know there is a Heaven or Hell? I know becuase I have accepted Jesus, and when you trully do this, you will know there is a Heaven and Hell, maybe I can not prove it to you, but I do know. :) The Bible has been changed over time, just not majorly, The Kings James Version, and The NIV both are pretty accurate to the old text, plus they have found the dead sea scrolls, and the NEW testament was written in Greek. SO I believe we have very accurate Bibles today, that still deliver the message. God loves Humans, but if you sin, which we all do, you will go to Hell, unless you accept Jesus as your saviour, then you will go to Heaven. We as Humans are sinful, so we cannot make it to God alone, thats what Jesus is for, the price for our sins, a way to spend eternity with the Lord. Its like a choice between peace or hell, and its not a very hard decision for me, anways.

The key statement: he can't prove it, but he KNOWS it to be true. That is a
very dangerous thought, Duke. In any case, I've expended enough energy
here... so someone please take over for me!

angel:

I am really gonna try and stay away from the religion debate on this one.

I am not going to tell a lie, death is one of the few things that absolutely scares me. Why? Because, I do not believe in the afterlife, reincarnation, etc. I just haven't seen anything to give me believe in these things.

In college, I studied anthropology. In my courses we studied belief systems of every culture, as well as the evolution of man. Now, I don't want to stir a huge debate here, but the facts that were presented to me lead me to this belief. Humans are to put it bluntly, animals. We did not arrive here from some higher power, we are the result of natural selection. Over time, our brains devoloped as our bodies became weaker.

Eventually our brain size became large enough for us to become abstract thinkers. A natural question arises when you reach this level of thinking. Why am I here? What happens after death? Fear arises when there is the unknown. So we devoloped stories, rituals, etc. to ease those fears. These over time led to the major religions of the world that we see today. One can see the evolution of religion over time, much like our societies. Starting as myths, primitive stories by the hunter gatherers that grew more complex as we settled into agricultural based socities. Religion was many times used to manipulate only what a small few wanted out of the great many.

I cannot simply have "faith" in a higher power when it is not tangible to me. I have tried, but it is only an affront to leasen my fears of the unknown and I recognize this. When my grandmother died, I had many problems coping with her death. About five months after it happened, I had the most intense dream I had ever had. In it, my grandmother looking about 25 approached me and told me not to worry about her anymore, that she was in the happiest place she had ever been. I awoke feeling grateful, but as the years have passed, I feel that it was just my subconcious helping me along with my grief. Nothing more.

So, I am not one to turn to for words of comfort when trying to understand death. The only thing I realize is I love life so much, and I am trying to enjoy every bit of it that I can before I go. biggrin:

death does scare me.......I am a christian and believe in Jesus Christ, I so believe I will goto heaven when I die. Some of you might say, how do you know that blah blah, well, if you ever read the bible, the things that are happening now, are told in it, told of plagues *SARS, AIDS, etc.*, wars over bablon(dont know how to spell it) and that is in Iraq, if you read the maps throught out history you will see, so Im not trying to spread christianity in here, im just saying what i believe and what makes since to me, but all in all dead does scare me.

but if you think of it...why is this happening now, and to us...couldnt it have happened lets say...years ago...or, years to come....bah, im down with death now....it just took me a while to let it sink it....ill die, everyone will die....it happens....so im going to make the most of it....

i just had the most amazing night tonight....my band played with 3 other bands for a thing called the "KRockathon band search". And what this is, is a thing where 48 bands compete...and then 16 are chosen to go forward...after that.....1...so, were pretty sure we made it because of the response we had...wow, its the best ive ever felt...i felt sooooo alive on stage singing in front of everyone....mmmmmmmm, i gotta go....email me pm me or im me if you want our songs biggrin:

bye byeeeeeee

[quote="Duke_of_Ray":31884]
Well, as long as you believe in Jesus, and accept Him you will be fine. You might say, your shoving your belief down my throat, but I am not, I am trying to hel you out. You may not believe exactly how the Chrucrh you go to does, thats no big deal, the main thing is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes the ROman Catholic Chruch has done many bad things, but if you really want to see the true face of God, read the Bible and go to a good Christian chruch, not saying catholics are not Christians, but I would say its best to go to a Chruch that is not as big on traditons and works, but one that teaches the Bible and does work out of the good of their heart, not so they will get you to heaven. Works will not get you to heaven, only accepting Jesus. It does not matter whether or not you get baptized, although its good to, and as for the people of the other religions, well if they have rejected Jesus, then the will be going to hell, but for those who have never heard, then I believe God judges them justly.If you ever have any questions just PM me, and Ill do my best to awnser.[/quote:31884]

Its by Faith that we believe! And the keyword is "FAITH". Faith comes by hearing and by hearing the word of God. Dont expect to be full of faith by hearing it 1 time. When He does call on your life...YOU WILL KNOW IT. Then you have a decision to make. I'm sure that some get many and some get few chances to make the right choise. See, true Christians will not shove religion down a persons throat, or not say anything at all. The Lord will make an oportunity for a Christian to tell the truth of the gospel to someone. They will listen or they will ignore and tell they are not intrested. Jesus told his deciples to let them be if they refuse to hear and for them to knock the dust off there feet and be about there way. I THINK THAT THE DUKE has done that here! God does love cause, he's give every person freedom of choise. He's not twisting any arms to accept His Son.

He said, He'd take the Sting of Death Away...... That's Peace enough for me!

Ok go ahead and flame.... not watching the topic anyway.

That is true becuase i am a christian myself. I pray very often but i hardly go to church but i do believe in god.

take the sting of death away? my advice is to watch some documentaries on slow painful deaths.

You guys should read "Tuesdays with Morrie" it's a true life story about a man who is going to die. He struggles in what to believe. For you people who are like i don't care what happens when i die are just ignorant. You really should care even if you believe it is nothing.

The one thing more annoying than a fundamentalist telling you what you should believe is a anti-religion person telling you what you shouldnt believe. Your religious belief, or lack thereof, are your business and no one elses.

As someone said earlier, religion is based on faith, but still rooted in history and fact. Jesus lived, mohammed lived, buddha lived. This is fact. Were they prohets, messhiahs, God incarnate? Or were they just charimatic fanatics? That is where the faith part comes in. You can say science explains our world, but i am not always so sure. I firmly believe in evolution, but I aint buying the big bang theory.

I always find it amusing when people say that religion is a tool to control the simple minded. That is such a simple response to a very complex human behavior. Religion has had its bad times and corruption, but it is run by man, and man is an imperfect being. You dont need to read the bible or even believe in it, but you should respect it. It is, afterall, the best selling and most influential piece of literature ever printed.

As far as the death question goes, who knows? All you can do is prepare yourself for it the best way you know how. When you die, you will know (or cease to know anything). Religion, if nothing else, is a way to put your mind at ease for when you face the unknown.

I fear that perhaps I came off to strong in my post. I do not mean to preach anti-religion on anyone. It's your life live it. Like stated, religion is a way to put one's mind at ease. It is even a means of controlling society with basic rules, i.e. don't go murdering people, etc.

Also, I do believe that Jesus, Mohammed and others lived. Highly charismatic people, that drew people to them, and became a huge part of religion, and history. Just like a modern day Ghandi, MLK, or in a negative sense, Hitler. All of these people drew masses to them.

Anyway, boss just walked in...gotta go. ed:

Mohammad, Buddah, and others like them lived, but the thing about Jesus is, unlike the others, Jesus died, and rose from the dead. DO not go by what you learn in collage, when it comes to religion, that is not avery accurate way to learn. You should learn by studing it yourself, read all the Bibles of all the religions, see which one makes sense, ask GOd to help you find Him, to reaveal Himself to you. DO not be afraid, do not be afraid to give up your life, or the things you enjoy doing for Him, becuase if you do give them up, you will be happier, and get a great reward, but if you ingnore the Lord, then you will reap eternal punishment for your sins. Religion does put my mind at ease, yes I will admit death scares me some, but it shouldnt, but Christianity is not about Religion, is nort about rituals, is about following Christ and accepting Him, you don not have to pray several times a day, go to church every week, or do good deeds to be a Christian, all though it is better to, all you have to do is ask Jesus into your heart, and you will be saved. I go to Chruch, becuas e I know its good for me, I should pray more, and help others more, but I know that I will go to Heaven. You might nmot like it when I say, that I know that thereis a God, but when you are saved, there is no mistake made, you truly know there is a God.

see...you are saying like IT definally happened

maybe it did maybe it didin't...you believe it is...don't say it like it is a proven fact

[quote="Duke_of_Ray"]DO not be afraid, do not be afraid to give up your life, quote]
why dont you give up your life, you'll be a better christian

How would you be a better Christian by giving up your life....?

isn't suicide a sin...

[quote:48932]The one thing more annoying than a fundamentalist telling you what you should believe is a anti-religion person telling you what you shouldnt believe. Your religious belief, or lack thereof, are your business and no one elses.[/quote:48932]


Your business and no one elses, until you start shoving it down people's
throats. Otherwise, I agree.


[quote:48932]As someone said earlier, religion is based on faith, but still rooted in history and fact. Jesus lived, mohammed lived, buddha lived. This is fact. Were they prohets, messhiahs, God incarnate? Or were they just charimatic fanatics? That is where the faith part comes in. You can say science explains our world, but i am not always so sure. I firmly believe in evolution, but I aint buying the big bang theory.[/quote:48932]


What's so special about the big bang that makes you doubt it ? If a being
can come into existence out of a void, so can the Universe. Similarly, if he
always existed, why couldn't our world ? Personally, I don't like the idea that
a house could build itself, that is, without intellect... but the problem works
both ways...


[quote:48932]I always find it amusing when people say that religion is a tool to control the simple minded. That is such a simple response to a very complex human behavior. Religion has had its bad times and corruption, but it is run by man, and man is an imperfect being. You dont need to read the bible or even believe in it, but you should respect it. It is, afterall, the best selling and most influential piece of literature ever printed.[/quote:48932]


Complex human behavior ? Simple, actually: fear. Fear of the unknown.
Some very clever individuals made the link between fear and everything
unknown and used this to control the populace: you'd better listen to us
or you will spend ETERNITY in TORMENT while others (the kicker) bask in
God's love FOREVER in BLISS. After hearing it a dozen times all sunday,
for years and from a very early age, it sticks. You do as you're told. Also,
just because a piece of litterature is a best-seller doesn't automatically
make it good: this goes for influencial as well. Don't forget that hundreds
of years of shoving Christianity down people's throats everywhere on the
planet might have something to do with that.


[quote:48932]As far as the death question goes, who knows? All you can do is prepare yourself for it the best way you know how. When you die, you will know (or cease to know anything). Religion, if nothing else, is a way to put your mind at ease for when you face the unknown.[/quote:48932]

If it helps them cope with a natural physical mechanism, all the better
unless they piss me off biggrin:

totenkopt - my post wasnt directed at anyone in particular. I apologize if it seemed that way. I came in late in the thread and didnt read all 6 previous pages of posts.

solidus - I agree about hte in your face people, on both sides, they rank right up there with telemarketers, and get the same response from me - none.

The big bang thing - I have a hard time believing that something like the big bang could occur with out some sort of catalyst. And them where did that catalyst come from? and we could keep going farther and farther back. No beginning, no end. I am the alpha and the omega. It all came from somewhere and I can offer no alternative. Thats where faith comes in. Its the which came first, the chinken or the egg paradox. There is no answer, just thoeries.

Religion is more complex than the control of populations. Yes, it has been utilized for just that, but its beginnings were not intended for that. Many of the traditions of religion are based more on physical and economic needs than on spirital reasons, but in many regions and eras, the church was the law. It was a natural and many times a mutually beneficial progression. It is impossible to talk about religion without talking about economics and politics. but go back to the first religions - the animistic worship and totems. They were attempts to explain the world their followers lived in. They were based more on respect for their gods than control of a populance. Most religions are pure, it is usually the church practices that tend to be corrupt or at least distorted from the original objective.

I never said you had to like the bible, but you should at least respect its historical siginificance. While most of its true meaning is found in the new testiment, the old testament is a very interesting historical account. I took an old test. class in college where we would read a chapter/book and then the teacher would explain the historic and political settings of the time. Seeing many of these events in a new context was an eye opener, and truely increased my respect for the writings and events.

No kidding, some people definatley need to find religion. biggrin:

[quote:a5e19]isn't suicide a sin... [/quote:a5e19]

I would say yes, under most circum stances, it is. :)

[quote:a5e19]why dont you give up your life, you'll be a better christian [/quote:a5e19]

I do need to do a better job about letting Christ control my life, unstead of me, becuase God can do so much better than me.

[quote:a5e19]see...you are saying like IT definally happened

maybe it did maybe it didin't...you believe it is...don't say it like it is a proven fact [/quote:a5e19]

Yes, I am, know why? BEcuase it did happen, when you come to know God, you will know and believe that this happend, besides, look at all the witnesses who saw Jesus ascend to Heaven, and when He was on the cross, the sky grew dark, I do believe there is an actual historical account of this. So, to me anyways, its pretty obvious, that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is the only way.

[quote="Duke_of_Ray":bf564][quote:bf564]isn't suicide a sin... [/quote:bf564]

I would say yes, under most circum stances, it is. :)

[quote:bf564]why dont you give up your life, you'll be a better christian [/quote:bf564]

I do need to do a better job about letting Christ control my life, unstead of me, becuase God can do so much better than me.

[quote:bf564]see...you are saying like IT definally happened

maybe it did maybe it didin't...you believe it is...don't say it like it is a proven fact [/quote:bf564]

Yes, I am, know why? BEcuase it did happen, when you come to know God, you will know and believe that this happend, besides, look at all the witnesses who saw Jesus ascend to Heaven, and when He was on the cross, the sky grew dark, I do believe there is an actual historical account of this. So, to me anyways, its pretty obvious, that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is the only way.[/quote:bf564]

1) What does god look like? does he talk with you?
2) People throughout ancient time watched executions as a form of entertainment.
3) They never saw him assend into heaven just die. YOu cant see a "spirit"
4) Day turns into night, light to dark. He was probably up there for a bit.
5) If jesus is the son of god, why worship him? why not god?
6) sorry if this makes anyone mad, just some questions I have had, and statements I wanted to make.

I read 1984

the same way that they can say "2+2 = 5" the same shit they can do to actually make you believe that...

is the same as saying that IT did happen...I can see my phone....but you can't see god

one if proven real, one is not.

[quote:3b3d8]I read 1984

the same way that they can say "2+2 = 5" the same shit they can do to actually make you believe that...

is the same as saying that IT did happen...I can see my phone....but you can't see god

one if proven real, one is not. [/quote:3b3d8]

Maybe I can not see God, but I know He is there, you can feel the presence of GOd, I wish I felt it more often, but I mmyself donot spend enough time in prayer or Bible study. You can prove 2+2=5 is not true, but you can not prove there is not a God. If you read the Bible and ask God to help you see Him, you to well know there is a true God, all you have to do is ask! What is so bad about asking?


[quote:3b3d8]1) What does god look like? does he talk with you?
2) People throughout ancient time watched executions as a form of entertainment.
3) They never saw him assend into heaven just die. YOu cant see a "spirit"
4) Day turns into night, light to dark. He was probably up there for a bit.
5) If jesus is the son of god, why worship him? why not god?
6) sorry if this makes anyone mad, just some questions I have had, and statements I wanted to make. [/quote:3b3d8]

1)I don't know what he looks like, but I will find out one day, and yes God can talk with you, and I feel Him to, has He talked to me? No, not in words, but has put burdens on my heart, but yes He will talk to people.
2)I know, kinda sick, isnit?
3)Yes, they saw Him,he was taken up from the peoples very eyes, read Acts Chapter 1 verse 9.
4) You are right, day does turn dark, but this darkness was not nightime.
5)Jesus is God, and the Son of God, I will admit,ist a bit hard to grasp at first.
6)Always ask questions. :)

[quote="Duke_of_Ray":f7e0a][quote:f7e0a]I read 1984

the same way that they can say "2+2 = 5" the same shit they can do to actually make you believe that...

is the same as saying that IT did happen...I can see my phone....but you can't see god

one if proven real, one is not. [/quote:f7e0a]

Maybe I can not see God, but I know He is there, you can feel the presence of GOd, I wish I felt it more often, but I mmyself donot spend enough time in prayer or Bible study. You can prove 2+2=5 is not true, but you can not prove there is not a God. If you read the Bible and ask God to help you see Him, you to well know there is a true God, all you have to do is ask! What is so bad about asking?


[quote:f7e0a]1) What does god look like? does he talk with you?
2) People throughout ancient time watched executions as a form of entertainment.
3) They never saw him assend into heaven just die. YOu cant see a "spirit"
4) Day turns into night, light to dark. He was probably up there for a bit.
5) If jesus is the son of god, why worship him? why not god?
6) sorry if this makes anyone mad, just some questions I have had, and statements I wanted to make. [/quote:f7e0a]

1)I don't know what he looks like, but I will find out one day, and yes God can talk with you, and I feel Him to, has He talked to me? No, not in words, but has put burdens on my heart, but yes He will talk to people.
2)I know, kinda sick, isnit?
3)Yes, they saw Him,he was taken up from the peoples very eyes, read Acts Chapter 1 verse 9.
4) You are right, day does turn dark, but this darkness was not nightime.
5)Jesus is God, and the Son of God, I will admit,ist a bit hard to grasp at first.
6)Always ask questions. :)[/quote:f7e0a]

1) Do you like burdens placed upon your heart? I dont, they are a pain in the ass. They make my simple life complicated and I dislike anyone that does that to me.
3) I will not read the bible, a personal thing I dont wanan touch it.
5) not hard to grasp, just weird, being your own father.

[quote:93740]1) Do you like burdens placed upon your heart? I dont, they are a pain in the ass. They make my simple life complicated and I dislike anyone that does that to me.
3) I will not read the bible, a personal thing I dont wanan touch it.
5) not hard to grasp, just weird, being your own father. [/quote:93740]

1) Do I like them? No, not at first, but they will turn into a good thing usually, since God is doing this for our own good, there is no reason to be mad at Him.
3) Why not read it? Juts give it a try, what could it hurt? Afraid of the truth? I hope not..........
5)One of the harder things for me to explain, but Jesus is God, and God os the Father of all things.

Jesus is the Lord of the Universe, and he is part of God. The father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

Thanks for that tidbit of info. hake:

I've always wondered, if Jesus is who he says he is, has he visited every other life bearing planet in the universe to preach salvation too?

[quote="CaP bUsTa":7c1b6]I've always wondered, if Jesus is who he says he is, has he visited every other life bearing planet in the universe to preach salvation too?[/quote:7c1b6]
thought that too, but it will never be answered unless we go exploring in the far future to other galaxies oOo: But we cant be the only life forms in the universe. God must have made others