[quote="Sgt. Paine":cc84d]no one will ever know for sure how the determination of orientation works.[/quote:cc84d]

Actually, there are many possibilities currently in the works that may reveal it. All it would take is to find a 'Gay' gene, just like they recently found a 'hangover' gene.

....But regardless, it doesn't take a fucking genius to realise that most gay people have to learn to deal with being homosexual, and that it doesn't just happen by their own conscious control.

[quote=Chappy]you don't work in a church and don't practice your "bullshit" faith anymore so you have no idea the crapstorm that is flying around most protestant (not so much catholic) congregations. YES I do, my family stills goes regularly, Not a single church has had a gay couple ask them to be married yet... because you don't then you don't see the gay activist groups that target protestants specifically in order to have gay marriage sanctioned by the church,Ya they will target it....but you can deny them that, it is your choice, I could care lees who you marry or not. the churches that do decide to marry Gay couples HAVe all the right to do this though, and will, AND they will call it marriage. Like it or lump it. got it ? not to mention more homosexuals in leadership positions (on par with the marriage issue). most denominations are having to play damage control in order that certain groups don't split their churches down the middle. I assure you that gay marriage will not be the end of your church. It will die on its own @ the rate it is at.

like i said, i could care less how you feel about religion, im not forcing mine down anyone's throat, so i feel its only fair that i not be called a "homophobe" because i dont agree.You assume I called you a homophobe ? Do you remember you're own username you can call practicing faith "bullshit" all you want...that doesn't change anything; what you do and what you believe in your life is your business...don't try and make it mine.I give God a lot more credit then any Christian does. (its cool to be gay but not cool to be a person of faith...wtf kind of logic is that? whoa whoa whoa... slow down big guy, Lets not try and reverse this here, You are NOT persecuted fror your faith, YOU are not in the crossfire. You live the easiest of all. Don't try and portray Conservative Christians as the ones suffering. liberals want all people to be equal, unless youre a conservative who believes in God...nice system you got there) Well why would it not ? Liberalism is the opposite. How can the 2 not clash. Should Liberals bow down right now and let America take a single direction ? Hell No. This is a democratic place where both clash FOR a reason. It is called democracy. Learn to live with it. why is it that when put up for votes, the majority of people in a majority of states vote against mandating gay marriage? because America is a bunch of gay bashing hatemongers? no, they just don't want the issue forced down their throats like it has been,Thats not the point, let the issue be decided by each state. The problem here is that George is trying to pass bills left right and center to "keep the family alive"and they don't think its a civil rights issue but a lifestyle choice that has been turned into a socio-political debate...until you can prove that homosexuality is absolutely hereditary, you have no scientific ground to stand on. Did you read either of the articles I gave you.......

and all of those articles you posted still cannot prove that there is a "gay gene" only predispositions of it... I was not tryign to proove a gay gene, but show genetics have a role in it. WHICH THEY DO In MANY CASESwho does those studies? all studies and cases are peformed by people, people have bias and reasons behind doing the studies...did you read the title of one of the articles......it has nothing to do with conservative thought vs liberal thought[b]then what is it ?

liberals want everyone to believe they fight for the good of mankind until someone doesnt buy into their crusade and then they are labeled "homophobes"[/quote:672be] rolleyes:

Probably 5000 + spelling mistakes...

You, Mr Don't Pay Any Attention To My Spelling And Grammar Mistakes, are complaining about someone else's.

oOo:

Spell check by Outlook

Of the 24 spelling mistakes found by Outlook Spell Check 17 are actual mistakes. Would you like for me to find some of your, shall we say funnier, posts.

I was reffering to my responses.. NOT his old man. If you look harder you will see I have responded in the BOLDED TEXT. oOo:

well since you've called everyone that hasnt agreed with you on this a "homophobe" then i will try to make that shoe fit.

as far as all your other points, you dont have to go very far in around these forums to find someone to help you bash Conservative Christians not to mention the fact that mainstream liberalism wants the rest of the country to believe that those of us who are CC's are wacko nutbags and the majority are not...the idea of the religious right and the moral majority are myths...there has been no such organized movement, but a majority of church-goers vote republican...

what does my username have to do with anything? you cannot have it both ways, either you practice faith or you don't. yah its nice when people say they believe in God but it ends there...so what? if you don't follow the tenets of the religion (the ones laid down by God and not by humans) then whats different from saying you believe in the sasquatch? the simple fact of the matter...how can the church bless a lifestyle that goes against its teachings? if the church balks on that then it loses its authority and then is no different from the local elks club...thats how the church fades into the background, by capitulating rather than standing up to the changing morality of the culture...which is mutually exclusive from the morality found in the Kingdom of God..

i read the article (which has nothing to do with the religious debate)but im skeptical because of the fact that this guy sites no sources aside from news from the NiH which says:

"A much-discussed study done in 1993 by a team of geneticists at the National Institutes of Health found a spot on, sure enough, the X chromosome that they believe contains a gay gene. The NIH team is now in the process of pinpointing the gene itself, which has already been registered by the name GAY-1."

...havent heard anything about this since, did i miss something? (they "found" it in '93)

but to mention politics and that debate...the fact that when put up for a vote, mandating gay marriage is shot down was the point, it means that the majority of the people in the state don't want that...then the liberal judges come seeing their meal ticket and start legislating from the bench and over turn the laws.

you and i will never agree on this and thats fine, we dont have to...and besides im all for allowing folks to have civil unions or any other rights hetero couples have, just don't try to force the hand of the church (youre naive to think that there are those who arent trying, i pick up my denominations newsletters and every month i see different)

Society is changing, and you will as well. It is all just a matter of time. Lie I have said befroe, you will look back on this like we look back on the civil rights movement of the 50's and 60's. Change will happen. Get over it.

So people will just have to forget their religion and get over it?

isn't that ironically intolerant.

You don't vote with religion. You aren't gay, so whats the problem when people in the same country are? The zealots out there believe everyone should be the same god fearing citizen, no exceptions. Damn idealist christians are just as bad as the conservative ones.

I was replying to Short Hand saying that it was going to be like Civil Rights where it would have to become accepted by everybody sooner or later.

It still applies to your train of thought.

in my opinion, there is an extent in which we should govern with a religious influence. I'm not saying make this a theocracy or anything. For example, some people think that every Justice should be an atheist. Our country wasn't founded through atheists and that sure as hell doesn't represent our society.

Maybe what your saying doens't apply to my post, but it may apply to what some people think. Pryo might believe in that sort of thing.

"Our constitution is made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
-John Adams

just an interesting quote

oOo: Morals, yes. Religion, no.

If that quote was 100% accurate then the following things would be illegal:

-Premarital sex
-Divorce
-Greed
-Big Business
-Condoms
-Free speech


Also he never says which religion, so I guess an agnostic could be included.

....and there it is.

i really don't want to make our system based off of religion. I'm just trying to say that religion does have an influence on our society and should be shown through some of our laws. Religion--->guides our morals to a certain extent. Making our government a theocracy is just absurd.

IMO religion should in no way influence or become absorbed in ANY political decision or in politics period. But you already knew that.

yep, and that where I totally disagree with you. it's all good though beer:

Why?

because that's the bottom of it. You can't really argue anything past that point. I'm not running for president or becoming a supreme justice any time soon.

same

Religion guides none of my morals. I don't take religion into any consideration when i'm nice to someone, or i don't shoot someone. These are my personal morals not religious.

Anyway, I don't understand how religion in govt is supposed to work in a country that is a melting pot of cultures.

Whose religion are you going buy? Christianity? Buddhism? Jewish?

You don't need religion to tell you good and bad things.

The US was built upon seperation of church and state. When you cross those, you fall into one of the categories of being a fascist state. Hitler denounced atheism and religion was a big part of his government.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

How do you draw the line?

I agree with Ninty, it's inconsiderate of people from any religion to want a government in tune with their particular religious beliefs, especially when the country in question is absolutely a melting pot of different cultures, ideals, morals and religions. Unless your country IS most definitely a CHRISTIAN country, then the christian religion, or any other religion should have no influence or bearing on government decisions that effect people of varying cultures, religions etc.

It's prejudice.

You can't please everyone, sure. ....But instead of laying down a certain suit of card, lay down a wildcard.

No where does it say anything about seperation of church and state. I believe that wording only happened in the Federalist Papers.

When I talk about religous influence, I do not mean 'having a required sunday mass to attend'. That's just dumb.

When Bush and company talk about morality and virtue, they are talking about Christianity, plain and simple. This country is supposed to be secular, so basing your political views on what your religious morality teaches you goes against the founding principles of our nation. Even though it says 'in god we trust' on our money, it also says 'new secular order.'

huh? They came to america to practice faith. Hell, whole colonies were founded upon religion. I don't see how religion "goes against the founding principles" of our nation.

Not @ all, where did you pull that ideal up out of what I said ? All I mean is the church will change with society or else it will cease to exist period. This is not a threat, nor intolerance, it is just general progress that is made threwout the times. The Catholic church went under MAJOR changes in the middle of the 20th century, such as converting masses from Latin to the country's language, more song hymm's, Full conversion of Bible's into english etc etc.. It adapted to survive.

Homosexuality is becoming a culture. So should we not respect as we don't respect Italian, Jewish, Irish, etc's heritige? We already show how much we don't respect black and spanish heritige; why not add gays?

exactly.

heh, I would like to edit that post and say: "many blacks and latinos"

Homosexuality is different than being black, brown, yellow, white or purple to the church because the bible says it is wrong.

The church will not or at least should not change their beleifs on homosexuality because that would be changing the bible's beleifs. It would be like the church adapting to accepting premarital sex just because it is acceptable in society now even though it is against the Bible.

i wouldn't use that arguement b/c the Church is human. Yeah, they're supposed to be influenced by the Holy Spirit but the human ego's have gotten in the way (crusades, spanish inquisition, etc.).

Changing the bible? Isn't that what Catholicsim, Protestant, Orthodox, Jehoveh Witness', Baptist, Lutheran, etc have done? Changing the bible and its teachings to suit ones need. The only true church is non-partisan.

Once again you are also not retorting my point. You might say its not ok to have homosexuals, God says it too, but what about gays' feelings? They are part of America. Isn't the point of having the US? To release people of persecution; ecspecially if its RELIGOUS. If you were to find the love of your life and your neighbor doesn't approve, you would still get married. ITS YOUR CHOICE TO MARRY, NOT OTHERS. This reasoning should apply for all, not just between a man and a woman. The only reason they can't get married is that their neighbor votes against it. What is the neighbor going to lose? Their pride? Ego? Ticket to Heaven? Unlikely.

I was saying that the Church will not change as SH said it would to accept homosexuality; I was never arguing that the church would still love them, my church has made it very clear that homosexuals need to be loved just as everybody else is, and I think that is a very important thing, I'm merely saying that I do no beleive the church will come to accept the lifestyle because it is written in the bible to be a sin, that's all.

And you are right, many different religions have added things to the Bible that they have either claimed are interpretations of the word or just add ons they decided upon, that's why I am in a non-denominational church, one that goes upon what the bible says, not what the heirarchy of church command says.

So whats your final opinion? Would or wouldn't you vote for gay marriage?

If the church deems it ok, society is moving towards it....?

I would not. The bible says marriage is between man and woman.

But that's just me

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:13

The only anti-gay quote in the bible. Also one of the most mis-quoted bible verses. It tells that if a man was with another man he is put to death by LAW, not religion.

Please try again. Please remember you aren't gay.

I'm sure you live by the exact written word of the Bible in every other aspect of your daily life too. eek:

Kinda inconsiderate when the result doesn't even concern you, wouldn't you say?

I mean, if either way it doesn't effect you, why do you still vote no?

No, it's not the only quote. And I think the blood being upon them may refer to guilt or the responsiblity to God when they die.

Tripper:
It doesn't affect me, you're right, but would it be right to support something that God tells me is wrong?

as far fetched as this sounds: Let's vote to legalize crack/cocaine. I won't do it. But let's legalize it anyway.