[quote:ff1a9]Correct. Ideally, we should all live by the golden rule but this isn't always a
possibility. For the correct functioning of society, however, we have made up
rules regarding the type of behavior most acceptable to as many people as
possible. Any more questions, Ed... or can I stick this dagger in your heart ?[/quote:ff1a9]

The reason your argument doesn't work, is because "life" in an aesthetic sense doesn't exist. Scientifically, we are all alive. Our hearts are beating, and our brains work. But beyond the physical, you and I are clueless to know whether or not this is truly "life". So in this regard we are all wrong and the idea cancels itself out. It can either be or not be, but none of us have that answer.

However, just like you say - soceity implements rules and standards that govern us on a base level; and so as humans as well, we assign value to LIFE, just like we assign value to ORDER.

And noctis, what I'm supposed to post a picture of myself and the-person-I-fuck to gain l337 status amongst the HTML-Savvy. Give me a break. Because I know you have a milk-jug for a head, and a girlfriend of questionalbe worth, does absolutely NOTHING to change my opinion of thee. Move along sirrah.

Abortion is bad.

'nuff said.

this is going to be yet another arguement that has no end. Truth is THere are exelent arguements for both sides. And some that arent good. Like the getting raped. Stat's show that women who get raped rarely get pregnant, there is usually too much damage done on the inside. ANd adoption is harder to do than an abortion. Sure it may be more "Human" but think of the kid. They will be made fun of, never feel like they fit in, and always want to know who there real parents are. Does that sound like a good life? lets just end it here and now. or this will go on until it gets locked.

Anyone who says abortion is murder should try becoming pregnant when they have no money, no job, no partner, no support and no way of giving the baby a proper life.

Then you can talk.

Abortion is a horrible thing.

Try asking my girlfriend. She had to go through one.

It's all very easy to sit here and get all judgemental about it and play the high moral horse but until you have to go through it you have no fucking idea.

She still beats herself up about it. It tears her up inside still today, despite the fact that she has met me and we are soon to have our own baby girl.

She hates herself for doing it but she had no other option.

She wanted so fucking much to have the baby. The father didn't want to know. All he said was "you have to have an abortion".

Her familly were shocked and she could not guarantee they could help her support the baby because her father had just recently gone bankrupt and lost their house.

She could never support the baby.

If she had gone ahead with it the baby would have had a horrible life and so would she.

She still wanted to have it, though. It can be all I can do sometimes to tell her that it was not her fault, that she did not kill that baby and she had no option whatsoever.

There is no way she could have had the baby and given it up for adoption.

Giving a baby up is not like handing over a toy, it's an impossibly hard thing to even contemplate let alone do.

I am not pro-abortion. Definitely not. If the mother can have any chance of offering the baby a normal life then I believe they should have it.

But, I will never judge someone who has no option. And some girls don't. It's a shame but it is the way of life.

The majority (what 99%) of this forum's users are male.

Very easy for you to condemn something that will likely never affect you directly, isn't it?

Murder, indeed... Bullshit.

ed:

Ok here's my take on the whole "cant take care of the child" issue -

If your so responsible to make this decision now, where were you so and so days ago when you got knocked up in the first place. Where was your commitment to doing the right thing, that would have prevented this person from getting into this situation. Hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it?

What abortion boils down to is a womans unwillingness to place themselves in a situation where they will have to be inconvenieced for 9 months physically and emotionally with a child. That's it. Theres no deep seeded womens right to choose, or this and that - all in all the majority of abortions are selfish acts committed by a society that has grown accustomed to being coddled.

As far as the men having no say in the thing - guess whos fault is that. Pro-Choicers writting out male involvement in the abortion process (again we're essentially just nameless sperm donors), yet the same Pro-Woman folks lamenting the absence of "father" in childrens lives. Just a case of having your cake and eat it too.

And no Ydiss not all of us are talking out of our asses. I had a gf who had an abortion, well before the first trimester was over. It was NOT smooth sailing through the emotional seas for someone who has "nothing to do with" this. Like it or not the male is INVOLVED here. It just pisses me off so much, the contradictory stances that women take in regards to abortion on father-involvement.

And yea the whole "rape birth" thing is incredibly old, and really pointless. In this day and age if a woman didn't get the morning after pill, etc - then there is a SERIOUS lax in local law-enforcement.

[quote="[DAS REICH]Unknown_Sniper":aa5eb]this is going to be yet another arguement that has no end. Truth is THere are exelent arguements for both sides. And some that arent good. Like the getting raped. Stat's show that women who get raped rarely get pregnant, there is usually too much damage done on the inside. ANd adoption is harder to do than an abortion. Sure it may be more "Human" but think of the kid. They will be made fun of, never feel like they fit in, and always want to know who there real parents are. Does that sound like a good life? lets just end it here and now. or this will go on until it gets locked.[/quote:aa5eb]
umm dude your arguments arent that good. My friend is a rape baby that got put of for adoption. His parents told him when he was 6 or 7 that he was adopted and they told him about a year ago that he was a rape baby. He wanted to know who his mom and dad were and so his parents told him the story. Now this is probably the reason i dont like abortion, that even though they are just a fetus, they have a chance to have a life. My friend never gets made fun of and always fits in, he was the star running back of my highschool team and is a provincial running back too. If he was aborted, well it would be a different story.

IMHO life dosen't start till your out of the punani, so if it isn't out then kill the bitch. If it is out then your a dumbazz for waiting so long.

Of course the initial act of getting pregnant is wrong, especially when you know you could not support a child. She never sits there and thinks "Oh, I had unprotected sex and had to have an abortion.. Oh well, not my fault."

What I was pointing out was that anyone who thinks having an abortion is a simple solution for girls (and when the father says "You must have an abortion, the pain suffered is all the girl's) is on drugs.

I actually did not read any of your replies as I skipped past page 2 to the end so I could reply, ED.

After seeing "abortion is murder" 3 or 4 times it angered me. Because those that said it obviously have no idea of what it is like to experience it.

As I said, she wanted that baby but no one was giving her any option. She would have suffered along through 9 months (hell, she's doing that right now, so it's nothing to do with "inconvenience") and she would have looked after that baby as best she could but what kind of life would she and her baby have had?

As it turns out, she aborted, hates herslef for it but now she is having a healthy baby girl with me.

She would cry most nights when we first got together.

For someone who lost their mother at 11 and had to have an abortion at 18, she's had it pretty shitty.

It was a horrible mistake that she conceived in the first place but that is not all her fault, it was shared with the wanker who fucked her in the first place as well.

And he didn't want anything to do with her or the baby.

Every single person and situation is different.

Her having a baby would have ruined the life of her struggling familly, it would have ruined her life and the baby would have suffered long and hard.

She knows full-well that she killed that potential baby.

But that's it... It's over. It will never happen again because she will have me to support her.

Branding her a murderer would help what?

Who is suffering because of what she did?

Her familly? The father? Me? The doctor?

No.

The only poor person suffering because of it is her.

I would defend her and any other mother in such circumstances.

It's no good saying "ah but why didn't they think of that when they had unprotected sex?".

What ifs get you nowhere and we all make fucking mistakes.

No one is perfect. But the good people try to do what is best.

Those are the differences between a murderer and a girl who has to go through an abortion.

She was wrong for having unprotected sex without considering the consequences, she knows that. But she was not wrong for having the abortion. If only she knew that too.

But because the death of something doesn't register (and I realize emotionally the hell she went through - I feel that shit to this day), does that cheapen the act itself? It is a violent and horrid thing, and there is nothing rosy or self-empowering about it. As much as you hate seeing "abortion is murder", I hate seeing "its all on the woman. 100%. End of story". Both statements are so close minded and so self-defeating. Seeing aborted babies or even reading about these techniques, these are probably the only thing I will ever cry about because it is so damn sad that THIS is the best we can do.

this topic is really stupid, the issue will never be resolved, get over it and enjoy your manly ways

me and my girl have sex, and should the condom rip, ill support the little crumbsnatcher

[quote=".sh1fty.":a2096]me and my girl have sex, and should the condom rip, ill support the little crumbsnatcher[/quote:a2096]

Too bad your girlfriend is about as real as your car.

w/e

in the end, im boning her, and ur boning your uhm, just boning

Never say " Boning," ....ever again.

Inneh has a secksi girl.

boning boning boning

lol

..about his "girl"

lets see some pics

They're on the forums somewhere. Where is your's?

Try not to post pictures of your local hooker.

how old are you? rofl...

Yea like noctis said, innoxx has a really hot gf and funny thing is, i actually believe him when he posts a pic. As for you, well the car isnt yours, so your "girlfriend" wont be either

Ydiss, there are special centers that let you drop your babies up, you see them at the start of most kids movies, saying dotn abandon your baby, bring it to the (Forgot name)

Its your girlfirend's ( i think shes your wife now, right?) fault that she had unprotected sex with someone. So now a life had to be killed because its irresponsible "parent" had sex with someone. And if she blames it on drugs or alcohol (not saying she did, just an example) then thats bullshit. Since she decided to get it on with some guy, a baby was made but then killed in the womb. hake:

I mean, what if that child grew up to be a famous dcotor, and cures some disease like cancer or AIDS (another irresponsible thing). Imagine what that kid may have done. Now think of the potential all those aborted babies could have had.

[quote=Innoxx]Too bad your girlfriend is about as real as your car.[/quote:5bf31]

the fact that he cannot say the correct english phrase "my girl and I" may very well prove that he cannot be older than 12-13

actually im 16, dipshit

[quote:b28aa]So in this regard we are all wrong and the idea cancels itself out. It can either be or not be, but none of us have that answer. [/quote:b28aa]

This the KEY statement and a repetition of what I said in one of my posts.
Freedom of choice. Pro-abortion. I wonder what Miss Ayn Rand would have
to say about this ?...

EDIT: Very interesting read for the intellectually inclined and open-minded
[url:b28aa]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7695/CHAPTR06.HTM#86[/url:b28aa]

[quote:819ac]I mean, what if that child grew up to be a famous dcotor, and cures some disease like cancer or AIDS (another irresponsible thing). Imagine what that kid may have done. Now think of the potential all those aborted babies could have had.[/quote:819ac]

Statistically speaking, this would not happen: he/she would be another
average oaf, a leech of precious resources. I can't deny the possibility,
but this is as far as it goes. Men and women of genius don't come along
very often and the odds of the child being a prodigy are lowered again
if the man and woman are not of exceptional intelligence: this is not a
rule, but considering that individuals with high IQs usually have children
with high IQs as well, understand that average people are not blessed
often with children of superior intellectual abilities. Just something you
should think about...

why the hell does every anti-abortion person say this

So i'll just counter it with the common pro-choice answer:
well he or she could also be the next hitler, ever think of that?


but like sloi said, they're more likely to be a drain on society rather than a help, that situation is more likely if the child is born to teenage mothers or college students that can't get a good job, because they can't find a baby-sitter or someone to take care of it. Or if they give it up for adoption its another child waiting to be adopted and it may take a few years to for him/her to be adopted and its a drain on resources.

Then again the child could be born to a good home and live a happy life.

Abortion is fucking shit, it sucks, for man and lady. (In some cases, either or couldn't give two fucks. That is just a definition of an ignorant person)

As a Pro-Choicer, I'd like to declare on behalf of some of the others that we don't 'accept' abortion, despite what some of you 13 year olds think.

I see it as a last choice for some, and a selfish move for others......But in both cases a horrible decision for those involved. It plain sucks, but its life, and life contains tradgedy.

You've been watching too much fucking Care-Bears if you think the only tradgedy people face in life is suffering from virginity.
You'll get a major wake-up call when something really tragic smacks you in the fucking face.

"Bloody Murder Screamers!" - Build a fucking bridge and get over it. You sound like wankers.


[quote=".sh1fty.":3ee3e]in the end, im boning her, and ur boning your uhm, just boning[/quote:3ee3e]

The only thing your boning is the warm end of a cow, you walking ass-fuck.

oOo:

You would know about warm ends of cows.

Schlass I don't expect you to understand because you're a 12 year old boy. So I won't argue with you, except to say that no way would my girlfriend pass her baby to a "care" centre - She used to work for one so she knows how appalingly children are looked after there. Ignorance is bliss, lad. When you've lived a full life making no mistakes and always using protection, never hurting anyone then you can come back here and say such things.

Tripper, Soli and Chango are right. Abortion is a horrible thing to go through and to do, but in life you will have to do horrible things. "What if's" get you nowhere in life.

"What if" the baby died during pregancy and killed the mother too?

See? You can "what if" until you're blue in the face, it proves nothing.

Until born there are no certainties as to what will happen with a pregancy. You then have another 18 years before you even have an idea of what the child would become.

In just one year my girlfriend has met me and we are now having a baby that we will give as good a life as we can.

I think that is a good thing to have come from her abortion. Selfish, maybe. But it's reality for me.

Anyone who tries to persuade women who have abortions that they are monsters or murderers are sick, twisted and nasty people who have nothing better in life than to make other people's lives a misery.

There are far more horrible things going on in this world today.

Your Body, Your Choise. Be It Right Or Be It Wrong.....it's still your choise.

SLOI I find Chapter 6 to be an interesting read, but it reads well - in practice it falls to shit. It's all well and good to debate the merits of self, and individual, and moral responsibility - but in the end all of that falls to pieces when we are the ones on the other end of the barrell. You have no responsibility to ensure MY safety, but wouldn't you like there to be someone to save you in the end. Survival of the fittest doesn't work when you are no longer among the fit.

And all this shit about enslaving women to motherhood - jesus. This one seems to be used to override and and ALL arguments, regardless of moral implication.

"I dont want to be a mother" -

Then by all means kill/abort the child.

Again I'll say, abortion is the last resort and the shameful creation of a complacent people.

[quote=".sh1fty.":d47e7]oOo:

You would know about warm ends of cows.[/quote:d47e7]

That was weak, Jimeney. Try again.

.....You Fucking loose ring-piece.

[quote=".sh1fty.":a2a56]oOo:

You would know about warm ends of cows.[/quote:a2a56]

That was weak, Jimeney. Try again.

.....You Fucking loose ring-piece.

fuck all the gay ass christian conservative biggots

[quote="_Blitz_":56d86]fuck all the gay ass christian conservative biggots[/quote:56d86]

I'm guessing you're anti?

oOo:

[quote=Tripper]That was weak, Jimeney. Try again.

.....You Fucking loose ring-piece.[/quote:5b9f8]

im not an impotent bastard like you, im ending this flame war now.

That's right, because you don't have a huge fucking shaft like me.

.....Art thou noble cockrider nameth, SHIFTY.

[quote=".sh1fty.":03efa]actually im 16, dipshit[/quote:03efa]
well, you don't act like your 16, do you?

No, he acts like a 12 year old with no penis.