Low sparks said:
[quote:80eaa]What is the solution?[/quote:80eaa]
Simple. Enforcement of the laws that are currently on the books. We had a case down here in Georgia where a former Black Panther was stopped for a routine traffic offense. The officer noticed a handgun in the glove compartment. This guy was a convicted felon out on parole. The law says that a convicted felon cannot be in possession of any firearm. He was arrested. The feds chose not to prosecute. A few weeks later he shot a Deputy Sheriff. If the law had been enforced he would have gone back to prison and a life would have been saved but it wasn't. This case further points out that if all the decent folks turn in our guns only the crooks will have them.

Law enforcement system is corrupt...that is where most of the murders happen is convicted fellons released and then they kill someone. They ruin everything for the rest of us...making guns illegal can't be stopped either...that will just make it more dangerous as the people who need the guns to kill people will find a way to get guns illegaly.

Conceded, but so are the pro-gun sources offered imbued with bias.

[quote:729ef]Yep. And I almost commented that your links were very biased in their interpretation of some studies, as I'm sure the websites that I like to use are slanted towards their political belief. Most of my numbers, however, came from governement statistics not lobbyist sponsered studies.[/quote:729ef]

Well I have offered government stats too, particularly in my last post revolving around someone's comments on Switzerland.

[quote:729ef] But, you are right to be sceptical of statistics. That's why this discussion should be based not in crime rates or deaths caused but in an analysis of what rights and liberties we have as humans.[/quote:729ef]

Perhaps, but as I've made it clear, my stance is the same there, that people have the right to live in a gun free society.

[quote:729ef]As for the stats that you listed - I believe many to be exaggarated. The article that you site include Dr. Kellerman as one of its sources. As stated before I find his methods to unsound and biased. One thing in the article that is interesting to me is that it states there are 65 MILLION handguns in the US. With that many guns and relatively so few accidental deaths, I would say that the gun owners of America have an incredible safety record. And the fact that there are so many and relatively few crimes committed per gun shows that the gun itself is not the evil party here.[/quote:729ef]

Except I wonder how many of those guns are owned by the same person. At the end of the day many people are dying from gun-related incidents.

[quote:729ef]
I agree, but it sure seems strange that it was declining for several years prior to the ban.[/quote:729ef]

There will be other issues at stake here.

[quote:729ef]As for the racism point, it's not relavent to this discussion.[/quote:729ef]

Well except we are all taking from our own perspective. I was a social worker and worked in black communities in the US. My anti-gun beliefs stem alot from what I have seen, heard of and experienced.

[quote:729ef]
Maybe this number WOULD decline, but at what cost. If murders, rapes, etc. increased far more than that number would it be worth it?[/quote:729ef]

But nothing has shown that such a correlation exists. What has been offered is conincidental stats from two select country and once again one can't assume that a gun ban is related to this. Our (UK) crime problem is very much down to other issues.

[quote:729ef] And you are assuming that ALL guns would be turned in (all 65 million handguns plus shotguns, rifles, etc.), including those held by criminals. NOW who is kidding themselves?[/quote:729ef]

Not at all, but one has to start somewhere. You make it difficult to get an gun and you punish those who own one before they can do anything with it. At the same time you are slowly making an impact on the culture, reducing the desensitizing element.

[quote:729ef]

Exactly my point.[/quote:729ef]

Except we're refering to legal guns here. The British police force does not elect to use guns because it believes fire will be met with fire.

[quote:729ef]There is the difference between us. I believe that individuals can be trusted. That they are innocent until proven guilty. That individuals are smart enough to make decisions for themselves without the need for government to hold their hand or be their daily protector. That they are granted certain inalienable rights by their Creator, these being life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, that..... Do I hear God Bless America playing in the background? :o :wink: :D :D :D[/quote:729ef]

Sadly I really don't subscribe to these. My experience, my work in certain fields leads me to believe that you can't offer many individuals total control, because they will use it to make someone else's life a misery. This is particularly bad when the social system fails them, something which is not very good in the US.

[/quote:22b9d]

But why do you want guns? It is simply something I don't understand. Are you saying you can't live without them (that'd be scary). I know there is a belief that they'll protect you but this certainly cannot be proven.

Some people enjoy collecting them and firing them on a shooting range...nothing wrong with that. Something I've wanted to do for a long time, just haven't had the dough.

[quote:f3736]But why do you want guns? It is simply something I don't understand.[/quote:f3736]

I'm sure it is a cultural thing. I just don't see anything wrong with it. I grew up with them. And there is where in the long run they will die out - there are not enough people, like Rudedog, passing on the tradition of gun ownership to their children.

[quote:f3736]my stance is the same there, that people have the right to live in a gun free society[/quote:f3736]

Aaahhh, that is the wall between us. Is it possible to have it both ways? I say I have a right to defend myself or even just to own a gun for pleasure and you say you have a right to live in a gun free society. I doubt that it is possible. Unless we divide up the globe, you can have the UK and Australia and we'll take the US. Sound fair?

[quote]Well except we are all taking from our own perspective. I was a social worker and worked in black communities in the US. My anti-gun beliefs stem alot from what I have seen, heard of and experienced./quote]

I'm sorry to hear that. I have done some social work in the inner city also. I think that in doing so it reinforced my belief in the human spirit. And I'm sure your right, my perspective was solidified by my father's experience.

I really don't mean this as an attack on anyone, but I do think that that is a good thing... for society. Hopefully that will then provide forces in the US with the powerful support, the middle-classes, to implement restrictions. Just my final thought.

[quote:dc91b]
Aaahhh, that is the wall between us. Is it possible to have it both ways? I say I have a right to defend myself or even just to own a gun for pleasure and you say you have a right to live in a gun free society. I doubt that it is possible. Unless we divide up the globe, you can have the UK and Australia and we'll take the US. Sound fair?[/quote:dc91b]

:)

[quote:dc91b]I'm sorry to hear that. I have done some social work in the inner city also. I think that in doing so it reinforced my belief in the human spirit. And I'm sure your right, my perspective was solidified by my father's experience.[/quote:dc91b]

Don't get me wrong, there are good individuals and most who are "bad" are so for a social reason, but in the end it is very hard trying to "convert" them. In the end we're all standing very different positions.

To recap, FWB please explain why your against guns. One or two sentences only please. :wink: I kind of lost it in all the post.

The reason I bring up the Automobile, in the gun debate. It is because the number one reason everyone dislikes firearms is because they say people use them to kill other people.

I just point out, statistically, automobiles kill more people!

Believe me, I am for harsher jail sentences. For anyone who commits any type of crime while in the possession of a firearm. I also believe if a child (under 19) is caught mistreating a firearm or bringing a firearm into a public place. Be it a school , city park liberally, whatever. Then that child's parent should be held responsible.
I don't mind waiting 7 days to buy a firearm nor do I mind taking a background check. I have nothing to hide.

Like someone said before. I will support the candidate who reflects my personally views on this subject and who will change the laws in my favor. I will also donate to the organizations who support them as well.
I suggest you do the same.

On a side note. Stepping out of this debate.
I would like to commend both sides for not turning this into a flame war and or personal attack. If for some reason If it does turn into that, I will have no choice but to close the thread. It's nice to know that everyone here can have an intelligent conversation. While defending thier beliefs.
Thanks guys / gals.


Now back to the debate.

Basically, and this is very basic:

- Guns kill, they were invented to kill, they are designed to kill. That is their purpose.
- I believe that a gun ban will save lives. Even if it is just one, that is good enough for me.
- I am not convinced guns save lives. No evidence has been put forward, just speculation. I also don't believe that individual civilians should be given the power to wild such a weapon and thus become judge and executor.
- I believe "legimate" gun users do not need to get their pleasure from firing off weapons and will find something else to do.
- We have a right to live in a gun free society (this is in response to those who bring up the "right to bare arms")

[quote:24bac]The reason I bring up the Automobile, in the gun debate. It is because the number one reason everyone dislikes firearms is because they say people use them to kill other people.

I just point out, statistically, automobiles kill more people![/quote:24bac]

Cars are not designed to kill. Cars serve a valuable purpose. Using your argument we should legalise anthrax, land mines, functional tanks for civilian use, because "they don't kill, people do". It is a poor excuse, in my eyes, and is comparing apples and oranges.

[quote:24bac]On a side note. Stepping out of this debate.
I would like to commend both sides for not turning this into a flame war and or personal attack. If for some reason If it does turn into that, I will have no choice but to close the thread. It's nice to know that everyone here can have an intelligent conversation. While defending thier beliefs.
Thanks guys / gals.[/quote:24bac]

It is unqiue. :) I heartily agree. Well done all.

[quote:24bac]Now back to the debate.[/quote:24bac]

I think we've reached the end here... Sorry for hijacking the thread, you guys can get back to your gun-collecting talk. :)

ok, here is a classic example of a "debate". The people who like to own guns lawfully should be able to do so and the people who don't like them should refrain from buying one!!....sounds simple enough to me.

This debate is like religion....you're either for it or against it....just don't push your views on other people. I'm a gun owner and i respect the "non" owners choice not to be armed. I wouldn't force the issue on them as much as i don't want to hear why i shouldn't own several hand guns. Ultimately it's your choice....i just don't want to be told which way to choose!! :wink:

I never leave the house without a sidearm! my main carry peice is a Ruger P944 .40 cal semi-auto. My kids (7yr girl & 4 yr boy) cna shoot and are tought to respect and handle them safley. NEVER AIM AT ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY! I have been a victim of crime too many times. Stabbed twice and shot once. This will never happen again! I live near Detroit and feel much safer with a gun in my belt! My fear is the kids that dont have a clue, a curious kid is a dangerous one. My kids know what to do if they find a gun and I hope other parents will teach thier kids too.
mb fire1:

I feel I should say something here. But I don't want to run the risk of being caught up in this discussion. *carefully backs away*

ok think about it... most people who are commiting crimes with guns get them ILLEGALLY... meaning even if guns were outlawed thered still be people getting them illegally. When u go out to buy a gun at most places they do backround checks and so on, if they see you're repsonible you get the gun...also, why dont we ban knives while we're at it, theyve been use to kill people too, theres also been accidents with them. In this day and age the world will never be rid of guns, no matter what