The simple fact of the matter is that lighter, smaller, and faster panzers will do the job better than large heavy tanks. I can give you any example, from any point in the war.

Early German tanks were fast, and underarmed when compared to French tanks of the time. Despite this, using Blitzkrieg tactics, they won the Battle of France.

The Russian T-34, was a revolutionary tank, because it combined speed and firepower, without losing any positive atribute. This tank, more than any other, affected German panzer design. The PzV "Panther" draws heavily on the design of the T-34.

In 1944, with small light tanks, the Allies assaulted France, and moved inland. Despite heavy losses, they could keep up production of their light tanks, underclassed in comparison to the heavier German tanks. The only real scare for the Allies was the possibility of running out of well trained tank crews. Everybody knows a Sherman cannot take a Tiger on 1 on 1, but with high production capabilities it didn't matter. It was 10 Shermans taking on every 1 Tiger.

The Germans realized this, after it was shown that the Panther was a much better tank than the Tiger. High turret traverse speed, fast overall speed, high velocity 75mm cannon, and thick armor, made the Panther a deadly tank. Combine this with the fact that it had a sleek profile, much more easily hidden from Allied Jabos than the Tiger, and it just makes sense. The Panther was produced on a much higher scale than either the Tiger or Tiger II.

Heavy tanks, such as the Tiger II, although devastating in combat, were never really designed to be main battle tanks anyway. They were designed to be used as small formations, within the armed formations, for defense in a particularly brutal area, or as part of a fire brigade, participating in an attack.

The Tiger II has a lot of bad points. Extremely slow speed, and slow turret traverse make it susceptible to flanking maneuvers in combat. High profile and massive size make it hard to hide from other tanks, and also make it very visible to Allied fighter-bombers.

Heavy tanks were designed to be defensive weapons, and from the very beginning defensive tanks are a ridiculous concept. The whole idea of the tank is to use it in lightning fast OFFENSIVE action to cut deep behind enemy lines, disrupt communications, and destroy enemy reserves in personnel, and material.

Heavy tanks cannot achieve this, and the design is really impractical. Defense does not win you the war, it never will. It did not win France the war in 1940 with the D2 or B1 tanks, and it did not win Germany the war in 1944-45 with the Tiger II.

Some may argue that Russia won the war with defensive action but this is not really true. The Russian T-34 was a relatively new tank, and was employed piecemeal in 1941. Most engagements by German panzers vs Russian tanks were against a few T-34's, with most engaging the heavier KV1's.

Once Russia had delayed Germany long enough, it then switched over to the attack, with it's massive production lines turning out the T-34 as it's main battle tank. And, once it did this, moving it's fast tank to the attack, instead of relying on heavy defensive tanks, it started to push Germany back.

Once again proving that heavy tanks should not be relied on, to win a war. Heavy tanks, however, can be employed as a support tank to your faster tanks, for heavier firepower.

Germany failed in panzer production by wasting time, money, and materials on these useless panzer desgins. This time, money, and material, should have been put into production of the Panther, and newer engines, cannons, and alloys to make this tank even better.

Wasting it on research of heavy tanks reminiscent of French heavies, is very ironic, indeed.

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34th SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland

"Meine Ehre heißt Treue"

Your forgetting about the JSIII, which was actually a good example of how to build a heavy tank. Sadly it was an exception of WW2 tanks, not the norm (Though it is still disputed as to whether it saw combat during the conflict).

Damn, can't post it, keeps screwing with the format, anyway here's the link to the JSIII specs. ---> http://www.wargaming.net/tanks/MODELS/js3.htm

[This message has been edited by Hans (edited August 13, 2001).]

There is not one piece of hard evidence to show that the JS3 saw combat in WW2, so talking about it in terms of WW2 tanks, is useless. And yes, I do know about the tank.

The JS line of tanks, however, do suffer from the same drawbacks I stated above. The JS line was also produced in nowhere near the same numbers that the T-34 line was.

The T-34 was the main battle tank, and the JS line was used in the support role, for good reason.



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34th SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland

"Meine Ehre heißt Treue"

"There is not one piece of hard evidence to show that the JS3 saw combat in WW2, so talking about it in terms of WW2 tanks, is useless."

Some say it did see service, and that is why I said it was under despute. Regardless, it WAS produced DURING WW2, so it should be considered in this.

"The JS line of tanks, however, do suffer from the same drawbacks I stated above. The JS line was also produced in nowhere near the same numbers that the T-34 line was."

I'm not saying it didn't suffer from those same draw-backs, I'm saying it suffered to a lesser degree.

"The T-34 was the main battle tank, and the JS line was used in the support role, for good reason."

And it is a BETTER example of a support (Heavy) tank, I'm not saying it is the
"Invincible Commie Cannon Mobile (TM)". I'm just stating that it is a better example of a Heavy tank, then the Tiger.

Holy shit, 1500 tons!! http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/eek.gif That is just insane, I don't understand how something like that can be produced http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif All I know is I sure as hell wouldn't wanna be facing one of these things unless I was in a tankbuster plane or something http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/eek.gif

i bet ya if u shot the tank commander and closed the hach on it u could ride on the tank wityout anyone knowing. Damn thing probably went 2 miles an hour, 1/2 mile to the gallon. lol What a wiast of money 4 that kind of tank.

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http://3rd.homestead.com/files/darkangel.jpg

I think 1/2 mile per gallon is a little generous http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif
My guess would be more like 20 gallons per mile. http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/tongue.gif

The technology the germans had then was nothing short of amazing. They were years ahead of every other country easily. They had the first jet plane and a plane called the comet which was power by a liquid nitrogen type of fuel. This fuel was then basically copied by the americans and matured into what they first used for the space shuttle.

Wonder if america would have been first to the space race without that fuel? http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gerald....HUcaptured.jpg

ONCE MORE UNTO THE BEACH :)

Hello,

i came accross this info. on a website, if this tank was built, i would not like to try and take it on!

Thanks http://www.achtungpanzer.com for the info.!!

P 1000 / P 1500

On June 23rd of 1942, Dir. Dip. Ing. Grote (along with Dr.Hacker) from the Ministry of Armament, who was responsible for the production of U-Boots suggested the development of a tank with a weight of 1000 tons. Adolf Hitler himself expressed interest in this project and allowed Krupp to go ahead with it. Project was designated as Krupp P 1000 (Ratte - Rat). This "land cruiser" would be 35 meters long, 14 meters wide and 11 meters high. P 1000 would be equipped with 3.6 meters wide tracks per side made of three 1.2 meters tracks, similar to those used in excavators working in coalmines. It was planned to power P 1000 with two MAN V12Z32/44 24 cylinder Diesel marine engines with total power of 17000hp (2 x 8500hp) or with eight Daimler-Benz MB501 20 cylinder Diesel marine engines with total power of 16000hp (8 x 2000hp). According to the calculations it would allow P 1000 to travel at maximum speed of 40km/h. P 1000 would be armed with a variety of weapons such as: two 280mm gun (naval gun used in Scharnhorst and Gneisenau warships), single 128mm gun, eight 20mm Flak 38 anti-aircraft guns and two 15mm Mauser MG 151/15 gun.

In December of 1942, Krupp created new design of 1500 ton tank - P 1500. It frontal armor would be 250mm thick and it would be armed with 800mm super heavy mortar "Dora" type and possibly two 150mm artillery pieces. P 1500 would be powered by two or four submarine diesel engines. In early 1943, Albert Speer cancelled both projects. P 1000 turret ended up at coastal defence battery (Batterie Oerlander) near Trondheim, Norway.

Even before P 1000 and P 1500, in 1939, Krupp began working on other similar projects for projected series of self-propelled coastal guns for the German Navy - Kriegsmarine. Series was to include 14 different platforms designated from R1 to R14. Armament was to range from 150mm to 380mm and it was to be mounted on fully traversible turntables on tracked carriages. One of the designs was R2 coastal gun armed with 280mm gun. The series never left drawing boards.
Specifications for P 1000
Weight: 900000-1000000kg
Crew: - men
Engine: 2 x MAN V12Z32/44 Diesel / 24-cylinder / 2 x 8500hp
8 x Daimler-Benz MB501 Diesel / 20-cylinder / 8 x 2000hp
Speed: Road: 40km/h
Cross-Country: --km/h
Range: Road: ---km
Cross-Country: ---km
Fuel Capacity: --- litres
Lenght: 35.00m
Width: 14.00m
Height: 11.00m
Armament: 2 x 280mm SK.C/34 L/54.4
1 x 128mm Kanone
8 x 20mm Flak 38
2 x 15mm Mauser MG 151/15

Ammo: -- rounds
Armor (mm/angle): Turret Front: 360mm / ?
Turret Side: 220mm / ?
Turret Rear: ? / ?
Turret Top: 150mm / ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Panzer IX and Panzer X only existed as projects on drawing boards. Although, there is no real blueprints showing the realistic look of both vehicles. PzKpfw X was to be wider but lower than Maus and was to be surely armed with 88mm or even 128mm gun. Both designs were very advanced and modern including many features which can be found in modern tanks of today.
http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/eek.gif http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/eek.gif http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/eek.gif http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/eek.gif http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/eek.gif

Thanks http://www.achtungpanzer.com for the info.!!

tim



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War is not a game, its for real.

Also, in no way do i support the Nazi Party.

[This message has been edited by NaZi_Boy (edited August 13, 2001).]

wow thats crazy,lol.....

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http://3rd.homestead.com/files/macchi.jpg
www.3rd.homestead.com/main.html

Here is another ultra heavy tank, that actually made it into the prototype stage. The Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus(Mouse). I read it in a book before, but here some info at the site -- http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz7.htm --

Weight: 188000kg
Crew: 6 men
Engine: Daimler-Benz MB 509 / 12-cylinder / 1080hp (V1)
Daimler-Benz MB 517 Diesel / 12-cylinder / 1200hp (V2)
Fuel Capacity: 2650-2700 liters + 1500 liters in reserve tank
Speed: 13-20km/h
Range: Road: 160-190km
Cross-Country: 62km
Lenght: 10.09m
Width: 3.67m
Height: 3.63m
Armament: 128mm KwK 44 L/55 & 75mm KwK 44 L/36.5
1 x 7.92mm MG34
Ammo: 128mm - 55-68 rounds
75mm - 200 rounds
Armor (mm/angle): Turret Roof: 60/90
Gun Mantlet: 250/round
Front Turret: 220-240/round
Superstructure Roof: 50-100/9
Front Glacis Plate: 200/55
Hull Front: 200/35
Belly Plate Fore: 100/90
Side Turret: 200/30
Hull Side Upper: 180/0
Hull Side Lower: 100+80/0
Rear Turret: 200/15
Hull Rear Upper: 150/37
Hull Rear Lower: 150/30
Belly Plate Aft: 50/90

Penetration of Armor Plate at 30 degrees from Vertical.
Ammunition: 100m 500m 1000m 1500m 2000m 3000m 4000m
Panzergranate 40/43 223mm 212mm 200mm 189mm 178mm 156mm 140mm


Pzgr.40/43 (APCR) - Armor Piercing Composite Rigid (Tungsten Core)

Hi,

There was really no point in building a super heavy tank, i mean, a tank the weight of 1500 tons is stupid, roads would sink let alone soil, you can't transport a tank that size anywhere. The British made a tank called the A39 tortoise heavy assualt tank, it weighed 78tons, even that couldn't be deployed cause of the weight. The fact that i find scary is that p1500 was going to have a 800mm super heavy mortar and it was powered by 2 or 4 submarine engines!!!


tim

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War is not a game, its for real.

Also, in no way do i support the Nazi Party.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NaZi_Boy:
Hi,

There was really no point in building a super heavy tank, i mean, a tank the weight of 1500 tons is stupid, roads would sink let alone soil, you can't transport a tank that size anywhere. The British made a tank called the A39 tortoise heavy assualt tank, it weighed 78tons, even that couldn't be deployed cause of the weight. The fact that i find scary is that p1500 was going to have a 800mm super heavy mortar and it was powered by 2 or 4 submarine engines!!!


tim

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That’s why they had special transport vehicle for the Maus, and a snorkel system to bypass bridges! The Germans were desperate and innovative, they would find a way, even for the 1500 ton tank!

those be some mighty big tanks!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hans:

Weight: 188000kg
Lenght: 10.09m
Width: 3.67m
Height: 3.63m
Armor (mm/angle): Turret Roof: 60/90
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not a tank, that's a freakin' fortress man http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/frown.gif Theres no point aruging, last time a heard, Hitler killed himself and the third reich collapsed. LOL. I do recall that some churchill tanks in the d-day landings unrolled mats infront of them so they didn't sink in the sand. But, the p1000 + p1500 + the Maus would need a bloody big mat! lol http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/wink.gif

Tim

------------------
War is not a game, its for real.

Also, in no way do i support the Nazi Party.

wouldnt these tanks be none cost effective? i mean money for all that armor would be hard to spare. And wouldnt those tanks be going very slow? damn id like to see that engine. I think a big thing like that would do poorly in battle against a faster lighter tank.

Mr Secretary of Defence. have u read my original post, the Maus would of been much much lighter than the p1000 + the p1500!!!!

------------------
War is not a game, its for real.

Also, in no way do i support the Nazi Party.

http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/eek.gif Actually, it would of used several engines!! http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/eek.gif
infact :2 x MAN V12Z32/44 Diesel / 24-cylinder / 2 x 8500hp
or
8 x Daimler-Benz MB501 Diesel / 20-cylinder / 8 x 2000hp
or
two or four submarine engines

tim


------------------
War is not a game, its for real.

Also, in no way do i support the Nazi Party.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NaZi_Boy:
Mr Secretary of Defence. have u read my original post, the Maus would of been much much lighter than the p1000 + the p1500!!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but the Maus was a Ultra-Heavy tank compared to the average sized tank of the day. The scary part is, it reached the prototype stage, they actually built the thing, and some say it even saw combat defending the factory where it was built! I would hate to be the poor bastard that had to fight that thing!

Most allied tank commanders trembled at the sight of Tigers. Those were really remarkable tanks.....

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http://gecko.gc.maricopa.edu/~ltnaing/Kincaid.jpg

You can't say civilization isn't advancing: in every war they kill you in a new way.
Will Rogers

Wow good info... http://www.alliedassault.com/ubb/smile.gif

Hans:

Most scholars agree that the JS3 never saw combat. Russian propaganda says it fought in a few battles, but there are no reports from any German records, of them ever encountering the tank. That is why most agree that it never was able to get to the front fast enough, before the war ended. A tank that is produced but never sees battle, cannot be commented on, because their is no data to show how good it was in combat. It never saw combat, as far as 99% of historians are concerned. There is no data, so how can you comment on it? That's my point.

Let's compare the JS2 to the Tiger2:

First drawback of large heavy tanks are their slow speed. The JS2 has a road speed of 37km/hr...pretty slow, even for as heavy tank. The Tiger2 has a road speed of 40km/hr. In comparison, the Panther has a road speed of 46 km/hr. So, the JS2 just like every other heavy tank is slow...in fact, it's slower than most. It's turret traverse and acceleration was no better than any other heavy tank of the time, either. Road speed is what is the worst for both tanks, right around 20km/hr.

Another drawback is a large profile, easily seen by enemy tanks, infantry, AT guns, and enemy fighter bombers/bombers. The JS2 has a length of 9.83 meters, height of 2.73 meters, and width of 3.07 meters. The Tiger2 has a lenth of 8.45 meters (smaller), height of 2.93 meters (taller), and a width of 3.7 meters (wider). So as you can see, the JS2 and Tiger 2 are very comparable in size, and both tanks are massive, and very easily seen from long distances.

The JS2 really can't be compared to the Tiger. Only by 1943 had 100 been built. At that same time 649 Tigers had been built. The Tiger was made long before it, and it was put into service long before the JS2 ever was. Comparing the Tiger2 and JS2 is a better example. And if you compare the two, the Tiger2 would win any such encounter one on one.


Most would agree, however, that even the Tiger1 could take on the JS2. The 8.8cm KWK used on both the Tiger1 and Tiger2 had extremely high penetration. Add to that the specialized armor piercing ammunition employed with these tanks, and the penetration jumps even higher.

The JS line was a good heavy tank. It caused the German army a lot of problems, however, I believe, because Russia was able to produce a lot of them. The Germans had heavy tanks to combat the Russian heavies, it was just a matter of not being able to produce as many, as the Russians could.

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34th SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland

"Meine Ehre heißt Treue"

[This message has been edited by Wolfshook (edited August 14, 2001).]

You're right about the JSII and this heavy tank information. But I brought up the JSIII, as an example of a better heavy tank to use in your description then the tiger, going on the JSIII specs, it was the best heavy tank, anywhere at the end of WW2. I was saying you should use the best example of the heavy tank produced during WW2 in your description of heavy tanks. NOT that it suffer no draw-backs.

The Tiger2 is still the best heavy tank of the war, even if you compare it to the JS3. Just my opinion, though.

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34th SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland

"Meine Ehre heißt Treue"