Hello all,

I just wondered what you guys think (and remember this is your personal opinion, so no one's answer is THE CORRECT ONE) the bloodiest battle of WW2 was?

Was it the battle for Caen, with the brave Canadians clashing with the young boy soldiers of the 12th SS "Hitlerjugend?" Or, the gallant defense by the Aussies of Tobruk, against Rommel's Deustche Afrika Korps? Or did it happen when US Marines landed on Okinawa, and moved inland to fight against the dogged resistance of the Japanese? Or, maybe it was between the Fallschirmjager defending the Monte Cassino, in Italy, from advancing American troops?

Post your battle, explain it some to us, as I'd like to hear your perspective, and reasons why. Why? I just like talking about WW2. http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/wink.gif

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34. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland

"Meine Ehre heißt Treue"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recycled Spooge:
Plus, all the best German soldiers were in the eastern front. All the trainees were on the western front since there was no action there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't mean to pick on you, I would never do that. However I strongly disagree with you, and this statement.

These divisions fought on the Western Front, against the Allies: 1st SS "LAH", 2nd SS "Das Reich", 12th SS "Hitlerjugend", Panzer Lehr, 21st Panzer Division, 116th Panzer Division "Windhund", 3rd Fallschirmjager Division, 352nd Infantry Division, etc. All were considered, if not elite, top notch divisions. All fought with bravery and determination, against incredible odds, IMO.

My pick for the bloodiest? The Battle of Kharkov, 1942.




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34. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland

"Meine Ehre heißt Treue"

you think those figures are high, I know this is ww1 I am talking about but the battle of the somme in 1916 had about 1 million killed or wounded.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen. Rommel:
The Battle of Stalingrad...hands down. THAT was the bloodiest battle...and one of the most important battles. That battle was truly hell...men were starving and dying of diseases so they can hold the city named after their leader who can be blamed for the diasters that occured when the Germans invaded.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> HEHE, that was exactly the battle I was thinking of. During some of the Soviet battles, the Soviets made their prisoners walk on mine field to clear the way for their tanks and soldiers. Stalingrad was the farthest the Germans ever got. After this they turned and headed back to Germany. The T34s really turned the war.

LOL.

The slaughter on the Normandy beaches.. HANDS DOWN. I will not extrapolate on my decision because of its apparent obviousness. http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/smile.gif

I know I would've chosen to fight in Stalingrad over landing on one of the sectors of the beach..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfshook:
I don't mean to pick on you, I would never do that. However I strongly disagree with you, and this statement.

These divisions fought on the Western Front, against the Allies: 1st SS "LAH", 2nd SS "Das Reich", 12th SS "Hitlerjugend", Panzer Lehr, 21st Panzer Division, 116th Panzer Division "Windhund", 3rd Fallschirmjager Division, 352nd Infantry Division, etc. All were considered, if not elite, top notch divisions. All fought with bravery and determination, against incredible odds, IMO.

My pick for the bloodiest? The Battle of Kharkov, 1942.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, that's nice but those divisions used to fight in the EAST, and I was talking about the state of the western front BEFORE the Normandy invasion. Most of those divisions you are talking about attacked during the Battle of the Bulge. I know that they send the best SS divisions to France after the Normandy invasion.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoLiDUS:
LOL.

The slaughter on the Normandy beaches.. HANDS DOWN. I will not extrapolate on my decision because of its apparent obviousness. http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/smile.gif

I know I would've chosen to fight in Stalingrad over landing on one of the sectors of the beach..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> HEHE, there's nothing better than charging Germans with no gun. This was in Enemy At the Gates and it did really happen, so kudos to that film because that was like the best part of the whole movie. That and the Stuka strafing.

The bloodiest? I'd have to say, maybe the battle of dieppe, in 1943 with the canadians attacking the french port and taking over 3000 casualties and retreating, a total loss, or maybe, the battle of kursk(tank battle between russians and germans) or stalingrad which you all know. okinawa is up there with iwojima, tarawa, and all the other pacific battles that were so horrific

Listen punks, im sick of the people who say without a doubt that the normandy campaign was the bloodiest of the war. It by far was not. The only beach considered out of the five that was a disaster was omaha beach taken by the american 29th and 1st divisions. And about 2500 casuaties mounted. Battles on the eastern front and in the pacific were far worse.Anyone who says, oh normandy was the worst, knows truly little about world war 2 itself, and only about the game, mohaa.

We're talking bloodiest here...

Omaha (and other beaches) : big machine guns ripping your entire body to shreds. Mortars everywhere.. chances of survival ? practically nil.

Stalingrad : some light machine guns and rifles. Perhaps some grenades..


I'm convinced the Normandy beach(es) was/were the site of the bloodiest battle(s) ever.

Of course they fought in the East, for the most part. Germany was at war...any division available fought. No division just sat around, unless they needed to be refitted with men and equipment.

And, most of those divisions were there before the invasion. They were just not released, by Hitler, to counterattack the Allies on the beach.

Panzer Lehr: Stationed in France, beginning May, 1944.

21st Panzer Division: Stationed in France, beginning July, 1943.

352nd Infantry Division: Stationed in France, beginning November 1943.

3rd Fallschirmjager: Stationed in France, beginning October 1943.

116th Panzer Division "Windhund": Stationed in France, beginning March 1944.

12th SS "Hitlerjugend": Stationed in France, beginning April 1944.

1st SS "LAH": Stationed in Belgium, and arrived in France, July 27-28th. This late date of arrival is only due to the allied airpower in the area. If that had not been the case, the 1st SS would have arrived much sooner. However, the 101st SS Scwhere Panzer Abteilung, belonging to the 1st SS, began fighting the Allies on June 13th.

2nd SS "Das Reich": Stationed in France, beginning January 1944.

Sorry, but you were wrong, for the most part. Germany knew the Allies were coming. However, they had to put most of their divisions on the Eastern Front, because his forces were so overwhelmed. They did have elite forces in western europe, and were ready for the Allies. However, they just didn't have enough of those forces, to do anything more than stall the Allies, until they could retreat back to Germany.

Sorry, but I just had to correct you.

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34. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland

"Meine Ehre heißt Treue"


[This message has been edited by Wolfshook (edited June 21, 2001).]

That's quite an assumption there IwoJima.

Because I answer Omaha for it's massive amounts of gore and blood (compared to other battles that were simply... bloody) I am thought to be an uneducated prick ?

The question was: "Which battle do YOU think was bloodiest (and in this respect, goriest as well) and why."

We are not talking casualties here ; only how bloody/gory it was.

Getting blown to shred by mortars every 5 seconds, dismembered and beheaded by heavy machine guns without stepping out of a higgins boat is about as bloody/gory as it can get.

That, my friend, was a valid answer to the posited question. Dying of starvation or hunger isn't bloody. Dying of rifle shots or grenade fragments IS.

But when you compare these 2 with their Omaha versions, you have your answer..

[This message has been edited by SoLiDUS (edited June 21, 2001).]

I agree with solidus on this one, normandy did have a few more limbs in my thoughts.

Yep Im gonna have to agree with H-A and Solidus on this one. If we were talking casualties, (which we are NOT) then what about all those who died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki <---- sorry cant spell-- after the atom bombs were dropped on them. People still to this day may be suffering from radiation poisoning. But my friends,like the good man said, we are talking blood and gore.

[This message has been edited by BlueDevil (edited June 21, 2001).]

The Germans lost 110,000, and 91,000 were taken prisoner. Around 6,000 returned from captivity. By the way, we are only talking about the Germans here.

Plus, all the best German soldiers were in the eastern front. All the trainees were on the western front since there was no action there.

Most definately the Normandy beaches.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfshook:
Of course they fought in the East, for the most part. Germany was at war...any division available fought. No division just sat around, unless they needed to be refitted with men and equipment.

And, most of those divisions were there before the invasion. They were just not released, by Hitler, to counterattack the Allies on the beach.

Panzer Lehr: Stationed in France, beginning May, 1944.

21st Panzer Division: Stationed in France, beginning July, 1943.

352nd Infantry Division: Stationed in France, beginning November 1943.

3rd Fallschirmjager: Stationed in France, beginning October 1943.

116th Panzer Division "Windhund": Stationed in France, beginning March 1944.

12th SS "Hitlerjugend": Stationed in France, beginning April 1944.

1st SS "LAH": Stationed in Belgium, and arrived in France, July 27-28th. This late date of arrival is only due to the allied airpower in the area. If that had not been the case, the 1st SS would have arrived much sooner. However, the 101st SS Scwhere Panzer Abteilung, belonging to the 1st SS, began fighting the Allies on June 13th.

2nd SS "Das Reich": Stationed in France, beginning January 1944.

Sorry, but you were wrong, for the most part. Germany knew the Allies were coming. However, they had to put most of their divisions on the Eastern Front, because his forces were so overwhelmed. They did have elite forces in western europe, and were ready for the Allies. However, they just didn't have enough of those forces, to do anything more than stall the Allies, until they could retreat back to Germany.

Sorry, but I just had to correct you.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ALRIGHT smartypants!
You win!

But they still send lots of trainees to France before the Normandy invasion. When were most of these divisions actually used in combat?



[This message has been edited by Recycled Spooge (edited June 21, 2001).]

I know that the Germans knew the allies were going to invade, since they were building a wall on the coast of France.

So we're only dealing with how much blood is spilled? Then I don't like the question...then why not just say Nagasaki and Hiroshima. I bet more people were blown to bits in those two cities than on the beaches.

Actually, everyone interpreted it as literally meaning blood. That's not really what I'd intended. I meant, sheer brutality, death tolls, and conditions of the battlefield.

But, if you guys want to talk about blood, that's fine. It's just not really what I was going for.

They are your opinions, though, and I guess the question was a subjective one.



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34. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland

"Meine Ehre heißt Treue"

Anyone know how many Soviets were lost at Stalingrad?

I'm reading a book about the battle of Stalingrad...but I just started it and have not even gotten into the actual battle. But I looked in some of my other books and I found a few figures.

German Deaths: At least 247,000 Germans died. And Two Rumanian, one Italian and one Hungarian army were destroyed.

I couldn't find Russian numbers..but I'll be looking.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen. Rommel:
I'm reading a book about the battle of Stalingrad...but I just started it and have not even gotten into the actual battle. But I looked in some of my other books and I found a few figures.

German Deaths: At least 247,000 Germans died. And Two Rumanian, one Italian and one Hungarian army were destroyed.

I couldn't find Russian numbers..but I'll be looking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, I'm also having troube finding the Soviet deaths.


[This message has been edited by Recycled Spooge (edited June 21, 2001).]

There reason for this may be because of the amount of civilian, Militia, and general troops is so staggering that you can't get a positive number.

can anyone tell me what happened on Operation Tiger , about some practice mission the allied troops were doing and they all died or something , i saw the last part of it on the history channel , (great blunders in history) , but i missed most of it .

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"The warheads will all rust in peace"

its not a battle but ill go with operation overlord.

I don't know..the beaches were brutal...but that taking of the beach didn't last more than a week. I mean by the end of the week the Allies had a stronghold on the beach. But Stalingrad was slow, and brutal. I mean..there were Russian troops who fought with no weapons, and plenty of men were dying of hunger and illnesses. And the fighting was probably the most brutal. The German army had been brainwashed to look at the Russian as nothing but a mere bug that needed to be crush and THEN burned.

The Battle of Stalingrad...hands down. THAT was the bloodiest battle...and one of the most important battles. That battle was truly hell...men were starving and dying of diseases so they can hold the city named after their leader who can be blamed for the diasters that occured when the Germans invaded.

Rommel, the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was not a battle! The question was asking for a battle, and I don't think Dropping Atomic Bombs on civilians is much a battle. I would have to say Omaha Beach was the bloodiest, because GORE was written all over the sands. Lots of the soldiers had no chance against the heavy fire and mortors landing everywhere. Oh and sorry if I offended you in some way but the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki terrifies me because it was such a violent act of hell. If you've studied Japanese Culture, you would know exactly what I mean. Just you phrasing it as a battle makes me sick. Those poor Japanese Civilians had no chance for shit.

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"Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!"
- General George S. Patton, Jr (addressing to his troops before Operation Overlord, June 5, 1944)

Stailingrad, was the bloodiest battle of the war, Men were hacking each other to pieces with shovels for christ's sake...I'm sorry some of you Americans can't accept that seeing as you have probably only formed your opinions based on the first 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan, but to get just a glimpse, I mean JUST a glimpse of what those poor bastards went through at Stalingrad, go out and hire that movie (Stalingrad), It's in German I know and the subtitles are pretty small, but I'm sure you'll be able to manage...Anyhow, what Enemy at the Gates like, It hasn't hit our shores yet...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen. Rommel:
I'm reading a book about the battle of Stalingrad...but I just started it and have not even gotten into the actual battle. But I looked in some of my other books and I found a few figures.

German Deaths: At least 247,000 Germans died. And Two Rumanian, one Italian and one Hungarian army were destroyed.

I couldn't find Russian numbers..but I'll be looking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I bet it's a lot, since they lost a total of about 20,000,000 people in the war.



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http://www.matrixturkey.homestead.co...gmohSMALL3.jpg

The damn civilians were not fighting BACK!! Yes the mission was a battle but the outcome was not! Do you not recognize that women and children weren't the ones firing flak, it was the Military. The Military of course lost plenty of men but not as many as Civilian Casualty. Here is the exact Military Definition of "Battle":


bat·tle (btl)
n.

An encounter between opposing forces: an important battle in the Pacific campaign.

I don't think the civilians fit in a description of "opposing forces".

Oh by the way, I don't want to start an arguement here. I enjoy these forums and do not plan on holding grudges on anyone here , so let's quit the bitchen and not let the tension rise because I sure don't want it to. Thanks.

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"Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!"
- General George S. Patton, Jr (addressing to his troops before Operation Overlord, June 5, 1944)

Yeah, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with nukes were not battles. It's like saying that exterminating people in Auschwitz was a battle.

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http://www.matrixturkey.homestead.co...gmohSMALL3.jpg

[This message has been edited by Recycled Spooge (edited June 24, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von Paulus:
Stailingrad, was the bloodiest battle of the war, Men were hacking each other to pieces with shovels for christ's sake...I'm sorry some of you Americans can't accept that seeing as you have probably only formed your opinions based on the first 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan, but to get just a glimpse, I mean JUST a glimpse of what those poor bastards went through at Stalingrad, go out and hire that movie (Stalingrad), It's in German I know and the subtitles are pretty small, but I'm sure you'll be able to manage...Anyhow, what Enemy at the Gates like, It hasn't hit our shores yet...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, first off, the close combat with entrenching tools, and anything else they could get ahold of, was during the entire Eastern Front war, not just Stalingrad. The Eastern Front was brutal, it wasn't just one city, where the fighting suddenly turned bestial.

Again, we see a European who thinks all of us learned about ww2, from SPR. Give us some credit, man, your sounding just a tad high handed.

I've seen Stalingrad...quite a few times, in the original German, with subtitles. Again, Europeans aren't the only ones who can watch movies with subtitles.

Calm the attitude down, though, and I might like you. However, insulting all Americans won't make you many friends. I happen to know a lot of stupid and intelligent people...who come from all over the world.

Enemy at the Gates, was ok...nothing spectacular. A little too much romance, and not enough down and dirty, gritty realism.

IMO

BTW, I'm American. http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/wink.gif


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34th SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Landstorm Nederland

"Meine Ehre heißt Treue"

Actually it was a battle but not a military battle. :P It was the battle of humanity. Anybody ever read Night by Elie Wiseal? (sorry if I slaughtered the spelling!). It is an excellent book and must be read. http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/smile.gif

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"Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!"
- General George S. Patton, Jr (addressing to his troops before Operation Overlord, June 5, 1944)

SUPREME COMMANDER TO 6th ARMY, JANUARY 24, 1943

SURRENDER IS FORBIDDEN stop 6 ARMY WILL HOLD THEIR POSITIONS TO THE LAST MAN AND THE LAST ROUND AND BY THEIR HEROIC ENDURANCE WILL MAKE AN UNFORGETTABLE CONTRIBUTION TOWARDS THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A DEFENSIVE FRONT AND THE SALVATION OF THE WESTERN WORLD stop

- Adolph Hitler


"I was horrified when I saw the map. We're quite alone, without any help from the outside. Hitler has left us in the lurch. Whether this letter gets away depends whether we still hold the airfield. We are lying in the north of the city. The men in my battery already suspect the truth, but they aren't so exactly informed as I am. So this is what the end looks like. No, we're not going to be captured. When Stalingrad falls you will hear and read about it. Then you will know that I shall not return."

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"Of the division there are only 69 men still fit for action. Beyer is still alive, and Hartlieb as well. Little Degen has lost both his arms; I expect he will soon be in Germany. Life is finished for him, too. Get him to tell you the details which you people think worth knowing. D. has given up hope. I should like to know what he thinks of the situation and it's consequences. All we have left are two Machine-guns and 400 rounds. And then a mortar and 10 bombs. Except for that all we have are hunger and fatigue."

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"My hands are done for, and have been ever since the beginning of December. The little finger on my left hand is missing and - what's
even worse - the three middle fingers on my right one are frozen. I can only hold my mug with my thumb and little finger. I'm pretty helpless; only when a man haslost any fingers does he see how much he needs them for the smallest jobs. The best thing I can do with my little finger is shoot with it. My hands are finished."

- All from 'Last Letters from Stalingrad' by A.G Powell, Published by Methuen.


Stalingrad was the watershed of the war. No other battle - possibly in history - has compelled the attention of the world to such a degree of fascination. The Soviet plan to trap and then crush the IV Army at Stalingrad was masterful and awesome; over 1,000,000 men were to swoop down on the German forces, cut them off, and then, unit by unit, annihalate them. And the plan's execution was no less imposing; when it was all over, the once-proud army of General Paulus, at its peak 330,000 men strong, had been utterly liquidated, and Stalingrad, scene of the wars MOST VICIOUS combat, was once more in Russian hands.

If you've bothered to read this far, I congratulate you...

diepe was a blood bath. but I dont know if i spelt it right