[FWB]

Originally Posted by Colonel

The point of the quote was that for the study in question to come up with the statistics stated (and in fact the statistics that you use in your most recent post appear to have come from the same study) they had to skew the numbers by only including gun-related cases to crimes where the perpetrator was killed. They did not include any time where he was only injured or held with a gun until police arrived. Had they done so the numbers would not have proven their hypothesis.

Conceded, but so are the pro-gun sources offered imbued with bias.

[quote:729ef]Yep. And I almost commented that your links were very biased in their interpretation of some studies, as I'm sure the websites that I like to use are slanted towards their political belief. Most of my numbers, however, came from governement statistics not lobbyist sponsered studies.[/quote:729ef]

Well I have offered government stats too, particularly in my last post revolving around someone's comments on Switzerland.

[quote:729ef] But, you are right to be sceptical of statistics. That's why this discussion should be based not in crime rates or deaths caused but in an analysis of what rights and liberties we have as humans.[/quote:729ef]

Perhaps, but as I've made it clear, my stance is the same there, that people have the right to live in a gun free society.

[quote:729ef]As for the stats that you listed - I believe many to be exaggarated. The article that you site include Dr. Kellerman as one of its sources. As stated before I find his methods to unsound and biased. One thing in the article that is interesting to me is that it states there are 65 MILLION handguns in the US. With that many guns and relatively so few accidental deaths, I would say that the gun owners of America have an incredible safety record. And the fact that there are so many and relatively few crimes committed per gun shows that the gun itself is not the evil party here.[/quote:729ef]

Except I wonder how many of those guns are owned by the same person. At the end of the day many people are dying from gun-related incidents.

[quote:729ef]
I agree, but it sure seems strange that it was declining for several years prior to the ban.[/quote:729ef]

There will be other issues at stake here.

[quote:729ef]As for the racism point, it's not relavent to this discussion.[/quote:729ef]

Well except we are all taking from our own perspective. I was a social worker and worked in black communities in the US. My anti-gun beliefs stem alot from what I have seen, heard of and experienced.

[quote:729ef]
Maybe this number WOULD decline, but at what cost. If murders, rapes, etc. increased far more than that number would it be worth it?[/quote:729ef]

But nothing has shown that such a correlation exists. What has been offered is conincidental stats from two select country and once again one can't assume that a gun ban is related to this. Our (UK) crime problem is very much down to other issues.

[quote:729ef] And you are assuming that ALL guns would be turned in (all 65 million handguns plus shotguns, rifles, etc.), including those held by criminals. NOW who is kidding themselves?[/quote:729ef]

Not at all, but one has to start somewhere. You make it difficult to get an gun and you punish those who own one before they can do anything with it. At the same time you are slowly making an impact on the culture, reducing the desensitizing element.

[quote:729ef]

Exactly my point.[/quote:729ef]

Except we're refering to legal guns here. The British police force does not elect to use guns because it believes fire will be met with fire.

[quote:729ef]There is the difference between us. I believe that individuals can be trusted. That they are innocent until proven guilty. That individuals are smart enough to make decisions for themselves without the need for government to hold their hand or be their daily protector. That they are granted certain inalienable rights by their Creator, these being life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, that..... Do I hear God Bless America playing in the background? :wink: [/quote:729ef]

Sadly I really don't subscribe to these. My experience, my work in certain fields leads me to believe that you can't offer many individuals total control, because they will use it to make someone else's life a misery. This is particularly bad when the social system fails them, something which is not very good in the US.