More Pro-War Hypocrisy

Mr.Buttocks · **More Pro-War Hypocrisy -** 09-08-2005, 08:06 AM

[url=http://www.oldright.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=731:f1fc3]Link...[/url:f1fc3]

[quote:f1fc3]Over the last four years, the message sent by neoconservatives to the rest of the nation has been clear: Get behind the Bush administration's "war on terror" or be prepared to face the consequences. But when the grieving mother of a fallen U.S. soldier tops the [url=http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/keyword?k=cindysheehan:f1fc3]neoconservative most wanted list[/url:f1fc3] of treasonous, terrorist-sympathizing, America-haters, you know something's up.

To paraphrase the Bard, "Methinks the neocons doth protest too much." Perhaps their violent outbursts against criticism of the war in Iraq are nothing more than feeble attempts to draw attention away from their blatant hypocrisy.

For a glimpse of this hypocrisy, look at what congressional Republicans [url=http://www.s-t.com/daily/03-99/03-12-99/a04wn021.htm:f1fc3]had to say[/url:f1fc3] about sending American troops to the Balkans a few short years ago. Then Rep. Tillie Fowler (R-Fla.) spoke out against Bill Clinton's proposal: "It is not within our power to solve all the world's problems," she remarked. She also said that she "could never look into the eyes of a mother or father or spouse or child of a soldier killed in Bosnia and say that American interests in Bosnia were worth their sacrifice."

Fowler's colleague, Rep. Porter Goss (R-Fla.), also weighed in, saying, "People in my district want to know the exit strategy. Getting answers from the administration is part of our job." Other Republicans joined the protest. House Majority Leader Dick Armey said that troop deployment was "poorly considered and unlikely to achieve our desired ends," and Majority Whip Tom Delay said it was "just another bad idea in a foreign policy without a focus."

The amazing thing is that none of these people were criticized for being unpatriotic or anti-American. Their support for U.S. troops remained unquestioned, and they certainly weren't accused of lending aid and comfort to the enemy. My, how times have changed.

David Frum, former Bush speechwriter and clown prince of neoconservatism, attacked those on the anti-war right in a hit piece entitled [url=http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6818:f1fc3]Unpatriotic Conservatives[/url:f1fc3]: "They began by hating the neoconservatives. They came to hate their party and this president. They have finished by hating their country." In other words, speaking out against a Republican war waged by a Republican president makes you a traitor.

And that continues to be the neocon modus operandi. In an effort to silence any and all opposition to the so-called "war on terror" (or, if you prefer the updated nomenclature, the "[url=http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1547:f1fc3]global struggle against violent extremism[/url:f1fc3]"), they have resorted to name-calling, ad hominem attacks and all out smear campaigns. But what else would we expect? The neocons are desperate because their [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A1996-2002Feb12&notFound=true:f1fc3]cakewalk[/url:f1fc3] of a war has turned into the proverbial quagmire.

It has been two-and-a-half years since the U.S. invaded Iraq, and what do we have to show for it? [url=http://icasualties.org/oif/:f1fc3]Nearly 2,000[/url:f1fc3] American soldiers are dead. [url=http://icasualties.org/oif/woundedchart.aspx:f1fc3]Almost 14,000[/url:f1fc3] have been wounded. [url=http://www.iraqbodycount.net/:f1fc3]Tens of thousands[/url:f1fc3] of Iraqi civilians have been killed (and that's about as close to a real estimate as we'll get since the U.S. government isn't concerned with determining the extent of "collateral damage"). Thousands more Iraqis, including a sizeable chunk of Iraq's [url=http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30E13FF3E580C768CDDA10894DC4044 82:f1fc3]Christian population[/url:f1fc3], have been displaced. Terrorist bombings are a daily occurrence, and the proposed Iraqi [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/23/AR2005082301374.html:f1fc3]constitution[/url:f1fc3] promises a system of government based on Islamic law.

Otherwise, Iraq is the veritable democratic paradise President Bush promised it would be. Yet one cannot help but wonder why we went over there in the first place.

Oh, that's right. Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was prepared to use them--possibly through his nonexistent network of al Qaeda connections--against the United States.

Unfortunately for the war party, every reason articulated by the administration as justification for waging a pre-emptive, undeclared, unconstitutional war against a sovereign nation has been proven false. Still, they forge ahead, unable to admit their mistakes.

President Bush, having run out of excuses, now thinks we should continue fighting if for no other reason than to legitimize the sacrifice made by those who have already given their lives. In a recent [url=http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050822-1.html:f1fc3]speech[/url:f1fc3] at the Veterans of Foreign Wars national convention, he said, "We owe them something. We will finish the task that they gave their lives for. We will honor their sacrifice by staying on the offensive … and win the war on terror."

But what about combating the evils that threaten liberty here at home? Let's forget for a moment that the war in Iraq was based entirely on lies. Even if everything the Bush administration has been saying is true, why should that excuse conservatives from addressing the domestic problem of a federal government that is growing bigger, more expensive and more intrusive by the minute?

Contrary to popular belief, tyranny isn't limited to Third World dictatorships. While Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney are deciding when and where to strike next, the freedoms of U.S. citizens are being eroded.

We have the [url=http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0202/0202patriot.htm:f1fc3]Patriot Act[/url:f1fc3] which makes every American a potential terrorist suspect. [url=http://news.com.com/The+coming+crackdown+on+blogging/2008-1028_3-5597079.html:f1fc3]Campaign Finance Reform[/url:f1fc3] is crushing freedom of speech. Washington bureaucrats want your children to undergo [url=http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul232.html:f1fc3]mandatory mental health screenings[/url:f1fc3]. Thanks to the [url=http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1813660,00.asp:f1fc3]Real ID Act[/url:f1fc3], we will all be forced to carry national ID cards. The Bush administration talks about fighting terrorists "over there," but has done nothing to secure our borders over here. You'd think that the neocons would at least feign interest in fighting to maintain the same liberties here at home they claim to be fighting for everywhere else in the world.

And yet the single defining issue that continues to separate the patriotic from the unpatriotic is the so-called "war on terror." I just have one question: If winning the "war on terror" means losing our freedom, then what exactly are we fighting for?[/quote:f1fc3]

TGB! · 09-08-2005, 10:23 AM

>>We have the Patriot Act which makes every American a potential terrorist suspect.

No it doesnt.

>>Campaign Finance Reform is crushing freedom of speech.

No it doesnt.

>>Thanks to the Real ID Act , we will all be forced to carry national ID cards.

And lord knows what a bad idea that is. Oh wait - noones said why its a bad idea beyond rhetorical nonsense.

KTOG · 09-08-2005, 10:37 AM

I'm with TGB on this one.

National ID card? Oh god no! I already have 6 forms of ID by the age of 20, another one won't kill. Yes they have more information than necessary on these IDs, but its nothing the government already doesn't know.

Patriot Act .... when was the last time I was cavity searched? Its for people that are under suspiscion.

Campaign Finance Reform ... times are changing.

ninty · 09-08-2005, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KTOG

National ID card? Oh god no! I already have 6 forms of ID by the age of 20, another one won't kill. Yes they have more information than necessary on these IDs, but its nothing the government already doesn't know.[quote:90cba]

What if you were required to scan your card everytime you got on a bus? Or entered a federal building, or wanted to travel?

What if they wanted to put your DNA on the card? Does that change anything?

[quote:90cba]
Patriot Act .... when was the last time I was cavity searched? Its for people that are under suspiscion.

So then why have people been held for over three years and not been charged?

The patriot act may not affect you personally, but it does affect other Americans.

[quote:90cba]
Campaign Finance Reform ... times are changing.[/quote:90cba][/quote:90cba][/quote:90cba]

Not too farmiliar on this so I will have to read up.

TGB! · 09-08-2005, 03:52 PM

[quote:82d21]What if you were required to scan your card everytime you got on a bus? Or entered a federal building, or wanted to travel? [/quote:82d21]

And?
[quote:82d21]So then why have people been held for over three years and not been charged? [/quote:82d21]

The prisoners at GITMO - are NOT being held under the USA PATRIOT act.

ninty · 09-08-2005, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by "TGB!":25832

[quote:25832]What if you were required to scan your card everytime you got on a bus? Or entered a federal building, or wanted to travel? [/quote:25832]

And? [/quote:25832]

If you don't mind that, that's fine. I do. I was asking ktog if he minded it.

[quote:25832][quote:25832]So then why have people been held for over three years and not been charged? [/quote:25832]

The prisoners at GITMO - are NOT being held under the USA PATRIOT act.[/quote:25832]

I'm searching for a link I had. I'll post it when I find it.

TGB! · 09-08-2005, 04:35 PM

[quote:47224]If you don't mind that, that's fine. I do.[/quote:47224]

Why?

[quote:47224]I'm searching for a link I had. I'll post it when I find it.[/quote:47224]

The folks at GITMO are being held under the terms of the GENEVA CONDITION.

ninty · 09-08-2005, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by "TGB!":05856

[quote:05856]If you don't mind that, that's fine. I do.[/quote:05856]

Why?[/quote:05856]
It's an invasion of my personal privacy.

This is all speculation of course, since the card isn't in use yet, but will be shortly.

If I am to use the card to access normal things such as public transportation or to enter buildings, it's basically a tracking device. Everytime you swipe it, the agency in charge will know where I am.

I suppose you could argue that this already does happen. And it does. Any type of plastic does this. Credit card, debit cards all record transactions specific times and places. The card goes a step further by integrating survelance. In order for anyone to basically go anywhere, you're going to have to use it.

One other point we must consider is what is the purpose of the card. The card is being implemented as a step to protection from terrorism. It's not just the US. There was a big debate in Canada in 2003 about a national ID card. The UK and Australia will also be implementing national ID cards soon. So pretty much every country is going fourth with this in some capacity. But what does the program do? Does it actually stop terrorists from detonating bombs? I don't see how it does. If someone wants to blow something up, a card isn't going to stop them. The card however, impedes upon rights as a citizen of a free country. The citizens "suffer" while nothing changes about terrorism.

[quote:05856]I'm searching for a link I had. I'll post it when I find it.[/quote:05856]

The folks at GITMO are being held under the terms of the GENEVA CONDITION.

Sort of. I believe the US is not calling the people there POW's, thus they don't have access to certain rights granted by the geneva convention. It is convention, btw, not condition.

Of course, the people there are not under the patriot act. I would assume the patriot act applies to US citizens, and not those of other nationalities, especially those from astan and iraq.

I think the people there are in legal limbo, which allows the US to keep them there for an indefinite period of time. There are many people there who have been there since 9/11 without trial.

I recall now that there are some US citizens in guantanamo. Mostly those with dual citizenship to another arab country.

1080jibber · 09-08-2005, 06:33 PM

[quote=ninty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by "TGB!":6f24d

[quote:6f24d]If you don't mind that, that's fine. I do.

Why?[/quote:6f24d]
It's an invasion of my personal privacy.

This is all speculation of course, since the card isn't in use yet, but will be shortly.

If I am to use the card to access normal things such as public transportation or to enter buildings, it's basically a tracking device. Everytime you swipe it, the agency in charge will know where I am.

I suppose you could argue that this already does happen. And it does. Any type of plastic does this. Credit card, debit cards all record transactions specific times and places. The card goes a step further by integrating survelance. In order for anyone to basically go anywhere, you're going to have to use it.

One other point we must consider is what is the purpose of the card. The card is being implemented as a step to protection from terrorism. It's not just the US. There was a big debate in Canada in 2003 about a national ID card. The UK and Australia will also be implementing national ID cards soon. So pretty much every country is going fourth with this in some capacity. But what does the program do? Does it actually stop terrorists from detonating bombs? I don't see how it does. If someone wants to blow something up, a card isn't going to stop them. The card however, impedes upon rights as a citizen of a free country. The citizens "suffer" while nothing changes about terrorism.[/quote:6f24d]

I think the biggest problem most Canadians have with it is the cost. I think it was $50-$100 the government wanted to charge plus you would have to renew the card after so many year and pay the tab again. I think it just another way the government want to take more money out of our pockets, just like that retarded drive clean program. I do not want this stupid ID card, If they are going to give it to use for free, than sure give me the stuiped card and I will put it in my wallet, I dont want to give the government any more money, they take away enough money from me now.

TGB! · 09-08-2005, 08:21 PM

[quote:10c52]It's an invasion of my personal privacy.[/quote:10c52]

On private property, or government property you have no "Personal Privacy". If you refuse to board the bus - you dont have to show your card. If you refuse to ride the subway - you dont have to have your bad searched. If you refuse to buy the liquor - you dont have to have your age verified.

[quote:10c52]This is all speculation of course, since the card isn't in use yet, but will be shortly.[/quote:10c52]

Doubtful - or in its current form and even SO - a national database of information isnt a bad idea, and goes to streamlining the sharing of information between not only the departments of the Fed government, but also the three branches of gov: fed, state and local.

[quote:10c52]If I am to use the card to access normal things such as public transportation or to enter buildings, it's basically a tracking device.[/quote:10c52]

Again - you have the choice to not use the service, and youre speculating on its use.

[quote:10c52]I suppose you could argue that this already does happen. And it does. Any type of plastic does this. Credit card, debit cards all record transactions specific times and places. The card goes a step further by integrating survelance. In order for anyone to basically go anywhere, you're going to have to use it.[/quote:10c52]

Show me the legislation that says if I'm to leave my house I need this card.

[quote:10c52]One other point we must consider is what is the purpose of the card.[/quote:10c52]

To create a WORKABLE database for the federal government to use in addressing the new age of Terrorism, here and globally. If you think thats soundbite information or lipservice - you need to think about how difficult it would have been for any of the 9/11 Hijackers to carry out their plans, if they had to use these cards to access any of the services they used.

[quote:10c52]Does it actually stop terrorists from detonating bombs? I don't see how it does.[/quote:10c52]

You dont see the benefit of a shared information database easilly accessible by the feds? How many of these 9/11 whackjobs used FAKE ID's to get what they needed? From the description of REAL ID's released a couple months ago - its going to be pretty damn hard to fake some of the measures built into the system. Illegals and would be terrorist can operate in this country because there is NO standard of indentification used across states. None. That is a SERIOUS problem.

[quote:10c52] If someone wants to blow something up, a card isn't going to stop them. The card however, impedes upon rights as a citizen of a free country. The citizens "suffer" while nothing changes about terrorism.[/quote:10c52]

Rhetoric. How - why. What "liberties" are being sacrificed? If you dont want the card - dont use it. You just cant drive a car, cant open a bank account, cant apply for a passport. . .etc. etc. But noone will have a gun to your head.

[quote:10c52]Sort of.[/quote:10c52]

Not sort of. They are.

[quote:10c52]I believe the US is not calling the people there POW's, thus they don't have access to certain rights granted by the geneva convention.[/quote:10c52]

They arent POW's as outlined in GENEVA. What country do they have allegiance to? What recognized body of Government. If a recognized group is willing to come out in support of these men - by all means. Noone has.

ninty · 09-08-2005, 08:28 PM

Not getting the card isn't practical if you need it to do anything. Thus, everyone will be forced to have it, whether they want it or not.

The information is only shared if the terrorists are using cards. I don't think the US government is going to issue the cards to terrorists, thus if they don't haev one, how are the feds going to get any information on them? If Osama wants to put a bomb in the middle of NYC, a piece of plastic isn't going to hamper him, i'm sure.

On the POW front, does that mean those being held have relinquished their liberties because they have no alligence? Do not all humans ahve basic civil and human rights?

TGB! · 09-08-2005, 10:43 PM

[quote:4f9c9]Not getting the card isn't practical if you need it to do anything. Thus, everyone will be forced to have it, whether they want it or not.[/quote:4f9c9]

There are MILLIONS of people in this country without some valid state-id. Millions. And they get by. Illegals get by everyday without one and they arent turning up dead. Your quality of life will indeed suffer - but its the price you pay for living in this country. So far noone has laid out any true violations of personal liberty - only complaints that it will be EASIER for information to be shared about you.

[quote:4f9c9]The information is only shared if the terrorists are using cards. I don't think the US government is going to issue the cards to terrorists, thus if they don't haev one, how are the feds going to get any information on them?[/quote:4f9c9]

Who said its for "information GATHERING purposes"? A shared database simply makes it easier for folks to do just that - share data.

And if terrorist doesnt have the proper ID - he wont be able to do quite a few things:

Buy plane tickets.
Buy certain products (explosives for example).
Get a passport.
Enter into an airports upper area.
Get a workvisa, or enroll in certain classes (flying school for example).
Etc. etc.

Its not about TRACKING people - its about making it extremely difficult for someone to commit fraud which enables terrorist activity.

[quote:4f9c9]On the POW front, does that mean those being held have relinquished their liberties because they have no alligence?[/quote:4f9c9]

As far as I'm concerned they have a right to three meals a day, and not to have a bullet put in the back of their head. Beyond that - as unindentified enemy combatants - they dont have much legal leg to stand on. What body of government are they appealing their case under?

Short Hand · 09-08-2005, 11:31 PM

You always find bullshit excuses, for bullshit ideas..... rolleyes: I can already see you first inline for the microchip insertion tracking device when they introduce it... rolleyes:

TGB! · 09-08-2005, 11:54 PM

[quote="Short Hand":4abb4]You always find bullshit excuses, for bullshit ideas..... rolleyes: I can already see you first inline for the microchip insertion tracking device when they introduce it... rolleyes:[/quote:4abb4]

Or you could. . .I dunno - use the part of your brain NOT super-soaked in CREATIN and ANABOLIC STEROIDS and actually refute someones argument instead of relying on your tried and true SMILEY's to think for you. . .

But we know what will happen is NINTY or someone else will MIRACULOUSLY state EXACTLY what you were going to state and youll simply quote their response with an "EXACTLY" tacked on. . .

GG -

Short Hand · 09-09-2005, 12:23 AM

[quote="TGB!":b75c0][quote="Short Hand":b75c0]You always find bullshit excuses, for bullshit ideas..... rolleyes: I can already see you first inline for the microchip insertion tracking device when they introduce it... rolleyes:[/quote:b75c0]

Or you could. . .I dunno - use the part of your brain NOT super-soaked in CREATIN and ANABOLIC STEROIDS and actually refute someones argument instead of relying on your tried and true SMILEY's to think for you. . .

But we know what will happen is NINTY or someone else will MIRACULOUSLY state EXACTLY what you were going to state and youll simply quote their response with an "EXACTLY" tacked on. . .

GG - [/quote:b75c0]

see ninty ? more bullshit from a pile of bullshit..... rolleyes:

ps.. i have done that once,, maybe twice in my whole time posting inthis forum, people like rdeyes, colemon, paine, stackem, all your fanboi's do it on a regular basis... we don't gangbang up on the liberal side here....Ninty is a man.. he can fight his own battles.