Shotguns, Snipers, Rocketeers, Camping, and Cheating

Hannover · 01-03-2002, 04:23 AM

After playing a great deal of the MOHAA Multiplayer Demo and reading countless posts from this forum and others, I'd like to initiate a thoughtful discussion about five hot topics - Shotguns, Snipers, Rocketeers, Camping, and Cheating.

Let me first begin with a story...

It was a dark and stormy night, and I was on a FFA Stalingrad server with about 9-10 other players. Pinging about 85-100, my connection was neither superior to anyone else on the server (especially not the host player and his ZERO ping), nor was it much
worse.

On this night, however, I finally got back in "the zone." "The zone" is where I play to the best of my ability, where I make all the right decisions, and where I have/create a lot of luck. I will sound like a crusty old-timer, but back in my Team Fortress days, I suppose I was a mean sob when I was in "the zone." Yes, there were many players better, but I had my moments...

Ah, but back to MOHAA! While playing in "the zone" on this dark and stormy night in Stalingrad, I cleaned house as a sniper.

My decent connection, combined with a bit of skill, luck, and less-talented players, made me shoot to the top of the standings very quickly. I was going on runs of 18 kills and no deaths. I should mention that this was only my second attempt at sniping.

After a while of this, I was called out by another player. Here is what transpired:

PLAYER X: Hannover, u are cheap
ME: Oh yeah?
PLAYER X: Anyone can snipe
ME: Well, why not join me and rack up some cheap kills?!?!
PLAYER X: No, because it takes no skill
ME: Yeah, I know. I need all the help I can get.

I ignored further protestations, proclamations, and rude exhortations and kept fragging. Soon others tired of my sniping and joined the anti-Hannover chorus. Here's what I was told:

PLAYER Y: lol you may be okay at sniping but can u use a diff weapon?
PLAYER Z: ya, sniping is easy
PLAYER X: no shit man, let's see him use a different weap

Before too long, the number of targets on the server dwindled to the point that I wanted to find another. After searching, I found another FFA with 10-12 players. I joined this server and decided to try the SMG, just to see if I could "use a diff weapon."

I guess you could say that I was pretty good at using the SMG, as I ended up with a score of 200-31. In short, I was still in "the zone." After one particularly tasty frag, I was called out by a player.

PLAYER B: Hannover u ^@%#&&@! cheater
ME: Thanks for the compliment.
PLAYER B: U are so f$^king cheating
ME: Again, I thank you for the compliment.
PLAYER B: get some skill cheater
ME: Where might that be had?
PLAYER B: f$%k you
PLAYER C: Who's cheating?
PLAYER B: Hannover...someone kick him

It kept going on, but I ignored all messages and continued to frag. As my kills piled up, a new player called me out.

PLAYER F: lame..Q3 monkey use a diff weapon
ME: I've heard that before.
PLAYER F: anyone can circle strafe w/ the SMG...takes no skill
ME: Okay then I'll switch.

At this point, I switched to the shotgun. Let me just say this: the shotgun is the weapon of choice for confined areas, as it should be. I ratcheted up my totals to something like 448-98, if I remember correctly (I've got a screenshot at home.) Near the end of my participation on this server, I experienced a stroke of luck on and killed a room filled with four other players. I did not die.

Needless to say, I was called out.

PLAYER Q: ghey
PLAYER Q: Hannover you cheap cheating f$%k
ME: Wha?
PLAYER Q: I shot you like 40 times in the head and u didn't die
ME: What can I say other than you must've missed?
PLAYER R: naw he's not cheating, but the shotgun takes no skill
ME: Do you guys have that "no skill" message bound? Heh
PLAYER R: Anyone can use the shotgun it's lame, try a different gun

See a trend here? While I found this humorous, it was also a bit disturbing. It is possible to do well without being tagged as a cheater? How does one win respect, get all your kills by pistol whipping your opponents? Imagine the following conversation:

GUY A: Dude, Barry Sanders was cheap. He got all his yards by playing running back.
GUY B: Yeah, let's see him play QB!
GUY A: Yeah, and without an offensive line!
GUY B: Yeah, IMO he was cheating the whole season. I mean, no one could be THAT good.

END OF STORY

Okay, now on to the topics!

The Shotgun

My opinion: Powerful but not cheap. Why? You've got a VERY limited range, plus the reload takes forever. If I am faced with two players armed with the SMG/MG who catch me at a distance, it is their responsibility to aim and take me out before I can close to within 10 feet. If you can't take me out in such a situation, then you deserve to die - especially if I have to reload.

The same goes for snipers. If you are a sniper and see me in the distance, use the Force to aim or something, because I am coming your way. If you cannot tag me before I get close and/or you choose to not change positions, then you deserve to die.

The damage seems spot on for the shotgun, though the shot does seem to spread out very quickly. The problem is not that the shotgun is overpowered, it's that the SMG and the MG are underpowered. If this bothers you, try the Covak-Pooter realism mod (CPR). IMO, this really saves the game. THE SMG and the MG actually kill with less than 2/3 a clip!

Snipers

What can I say? They seem fine to me, though I do wish there was more of a penalty associated with switching to the zoomed-in view. As it stands, you switch from normal FOV to a perfectly steady scope view in what, 1/2 second? Also, as mentioned in previous posts, maybe aiming drift should be employed. I would have to try this out before final say.

Rocketeers

I am not bothered by these fellows, except for the silly decision to allow them to shoot you from 3 feet away without suffering the penalty of mutual death. The splash damage associated with the bazooka and panzerfaust can be effective against hard to target snipers.

Camping

Frankly, I do not care if someone chooses to wait at the church and cover the 88. Why not? I am surprised to see so few teams using the defense in depth strategy. In fact, defense in depth was used extensively during WWll. Placing all defensive units at or very near the main line of resistance increases the chances of all defending units being destroyed by opening artillery salvos, or enveloped by pincer movements.

When does playing "D" - especially taking a position at or near the church - become camping? Please tell me, because IMO, there is no such beast in this game.

Cheating

I don't cheat, and I haven't seen anyone cheat. Yes, I am sure it's possible, but again, I have yet to see it with my own eyes. Then again, would I recognize it if I saw it? I'm not sure.

Do not think that because you are hitting someone that you actually ARE hitting them. Keep this in mind when you label someone you can't kill as a cheater. It may be hard to admit to yourself, but some players are just a heck of a lot better than others - even without cheating.

Hannover

01-03-2002, 04:39 AM

Three cheers Hannover for this in depth and fair post. I agree whole heartedly with all your points and my opinion on the topic is that players are simply venting their frustrations about failing to kill you when they had the oppurtunity, by calling you cheater or demanding that you switch to a different gun. You sound like an excellent gamer, and I would enjoy playing you anytime.

Stylin Trix · 01-03-2002, 04:39 AM

yes i agreee lets take out all the guns except the garand and mousser good idea..............

3/504th-Cpt.Knight · 01-03-2002, 05:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Stylin Trix:
yes i agreee lets take out all the guns except the garand and mousser good idea..............<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that's what hannover meant.

Nice post Hannover. I agree whole-heartedly. About your first topic, on being in the zone and accused of cheating. I found that if server admins imploy timed rounds, say 25 minutes rounds in team-match or free-for-all, people don't get upset as much and accuse people of cheating. It is sometime quite discouraging when I get on a server and some player has a 200-30 score, and I get flooded with thoughts of labeling these players as cheats when I get wasted by them. I think its just human nature.

Also, those people who label the cheaters should do this first, go to spectator mode and watch them. Then see if it looks like they are cheating. I've done this a few times and I've been proven wrong everytime.

------------------
3rd Battalion
504th Parachute Infantry Regiment
82nd Airborne Division
"The Blue Devils"

KrautKiller16 · 01-03-2002, 05:30 AM

Man, I couldn't agree more.

Innoxx · 01-03-2002, 05:54 AM

*bow gracefully to hannover

SS.SGW-Siggi · 01-03-2002, 05:56 AM

Good post. Unfortunately it supposes that somebody can be 'good' at a game like this.

This game can't simulate real combat to any great depth. It mimics it in a very crude way and anyone playing it is constrained by that fact.
New players make easy targets to old hands, but after a while EVERYONE, to a greater or lesser degree, reaches a broadly similar level of ability in it.
Of course there are those who simply never improve. And there are those who get a real knack for it. But on any given day, on any given server, it should not be possible for one player to rack up a 200/30 score against a variety of other players as they enter/leave the server. Unless that player is cheating or something is amiss with the server/connection.

To put it another way, player abilities average out and so do scores. In real life a person can reach a special level of ability, because real life offers an almost limitless number of parameters. A game does not. It offers only those parameters that are coded into the program.

To use an analogy...a game is like a test. If you give a test containing five simple questions to a group of grads, it would be fair to say 99% of them would score at least 95%. No one of them would out-score any other by any appreciable margin.

Conclusion: If you find yourself with a score of 200/31, assume something is fucked in Denmark (connection, server, whatever)...unless you know different, ie that you are employing 'special powers'. What everyone else calls cheating.

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AlphaLeader · 01-03-2002, 06:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SS.SGW-Siggi:
Good post. Unfortunately it supposes that somebody can be 'good' at a game like this.

This game can't simulate real combat to any great depth. It mimics it in a very crude way and anyone playing it is constrained by that fact.
New players make easy targets to old hands, but after a while EVERYONE, to a greater or lesser degree, reaches a broadly similar level of ability in it.
Of course there are those who simply never improve. And there are those who get a real knack for it. But on any given day, on any given server, it should not be possible for one player to rack up a 200/30 score against a variety of other players as they enter/leave the server. Unless that player is cheating or something is amiss with the server/connection.

To put it another way, player abilities average out and so do scores. In real life a person can reach a special level of ability, because real life offers an almost limitless number of parameters. A game does not. It offers only those parameters that are coded into the program.

To use an analogy...a game is like a test. If you give a test containing five simple questions to a group of grads, it would be fair to say 99% of them would score at least 95%. No one of them would out-score any other by any appreciable margin.

Conclusion: If you find yourself with a score of 200/31, assume something is fucked in Denmark (connection, server, whatever)...unless you know different, ie that you are employing 'special powers'. What everyone else calls cheating.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

some good things in that post. but next time, dont fuck up the topic lol

[o2] biggy · 01-03-2002, 06:33 AM

hey hannover
can you believe they switch HongKongAction Dojo to FF ON?

I can't play 2 rounds without getting team killed it seems.

SS.SGW-Siggi · 01-03-2002, 06:38 AM

I know I won't be popular for shattering the illusion that one can become a sniper-god in this game, but dem's da facts. You can win a Ferrari in an afternoon, but you'll lose it the next day. Online games, or the code they are made from, are simply too crude to allow mastery. However good you think you are, you are limited by the restrictions of the code and the quality of the connection you are playing over. Competition becomes a lucky-dip, modified to only a slight degree by one's skill.

That's my excuse for being crap and I'm sticking to it.

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Hannover · 01-03-2002, 06:56 AM

Hi Siggi,

I enjoyed your post. You brought to light some interesting observations.

I would, however, like to respectfully disagree with a couple of your points. =)

First, what is wrong with the supposition that someone can be good at a game like this? What about Thresh? While I do not know if Thresh plays MOHAA, he most certainly played the various Quake games. By virtue of playing Quake, Thresh had to excel within its limitations. But those limitations did not flatten his play to where it closely resembled the average player's skill. No, Thresh was light years ahead of almost everyone else he played. In short, he was really good at playing Quake. (This is not meant to imply I am the Thresh of MOHAA!)

Yes, you are very correct, sir, when you say that "EVERYONE, to a greater or lesser degree, reaches a broadly similar level of ability in it." I'd buy that for a dollar! My only but (okay I've got another butt, but that's another story...) is that this average ability is just that - average. When people of similar skill play together for a long time, it can de disconcerting to see someone come along who does not fall in that mean - a "savant" or "genius" player, if you will. This person (not necessarily me) can make you feel like crap because they never seem to die and they always seem to get lucky. They seem like they must be cheating. But there are people that, whether through luck, skill, or l33t connection, consistently rise well above the average player.

And finally, you said that "on any given day, on any given server, it should not be possible for one player to rack up a 200/30 score against a variety of other players as they enter/leave the server."

Well guess what? It IS possible. I've done it four times now. I assume, though, that the parade of players I faced over the 2-hour period were of a "broadly similar level of ability." I didn't see too many good decisions being made, yet they had good connections, at least judging by their pings. The host was pinging zero, of course.

I guess this leaves us at only one possible conclusion: Since all connections seemed good, and because it is not possible to be appreciably better than others. I must have been cheating and not even realized it. =)

Hannover

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SS.SGW-Siggi:
Good post. Unfortunately it supposes that somebody can be 'good' at a game like this.

This game can't simulate real combat to any great depth. It mimics it in a very crude way and anyone playing it is constrained by that fact.
New players make easy targets to old hands, but after a while EVERYONE, to a greater or lesser degree, reaches a broadly similar level of ability in it.
Of course there are those who simply never improve. And there are those who get a real knack for it. But on any given day, on any given server, it should not be possible for one player to rack up a 200/30 score against a variety of other players as they enter/leave the server. Unless that player is cheating or something is amiss with the server/connection.

To put it another way, player abilities average out and so do scores. In real life a person can reach a special level of ability, because real life offers an almost limitless number of parameters. A game does not. It offers only those parameters that are coded into the program.

To use an analogy...a game is like a test. If you give a test containing five simple questions to a group of grads, it would be fair to say 99% of them would score at least 95%. No one of them would out-score any other by any appreciable margin.

Conclusion: If you find yourself with a score of 200/31, assume something is fucked in Denmark (connection, server, whatever)...unless you know different, ie that you are employing 'special powers'. What everyone else calls cheating.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by Hannover (edited January 03, 2002).]

Decoy · 01-03-2002, 07:07 AM

let the n00bs use what they want. arent u happy when u kill them? it makes it a lil more fun with rockets, and shotguns aggrivate the hell outa me. but just kill em!

lol

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-Waffen SS-

Hannover · 01-03-2002, 07:15 AM

Hey biggy,

Really? Hmmmm.... Scary. I have yet to play on a server with FF switched on where it did not end up as a TK orgy. Crazy stuff, really. I was playing on one server where this crap started. One allied dude kept rocketing his own team at the get-go. I left and came back the next day and this crap was still going on, albeit with different players.

Hannover

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by [o2] biggy:
hey hannover
can you believe they switch HongKongAction Dojo to FF ON?

I can't play 2 rounds without getting team killed it seems.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

01-03-2002, 07:33 AM

Interesting ideas. But a few thoughts of my own. (Other than people will always whine when someone is hard to beat).

1) A player can be "good" because his computer is. Too many play this game with too many levels of computers and video cards, etc. Rarely will you find a pent III user with a 56K and a Voodoo card or worse ever being as "good" as someone with the latest and greatest stuff. I have cable but there are times when I am shot by someone who could see me but my resolution would not allow me to see them, just black haze. So even if some people really are "good" or better than others, technology is the main boost or handicap in such a game. But I do admire the guys who can storm so fast and aim at the head so consistantly. I have to rely on my wits more than my reflexes. And that would probably be the case if everyone had the same rig and same lag. Also, someone who has played Quake-like games before will haved a great advantage over us that have not.

2) I totally agree that there is a difference between defending the objective and camping. Some server was kicking people because they were the last ones left on each side and the host was bored. That was lame. So is the 15 seconds of "inactivity" and you're out, even though you are sitting there firing away with a BAR and taking a lot of fire.

An American hiding in the top of the first building near his spawn site until he is finally ferreted out IS camping. The German sniper or MG guarding the 88 is NOT. However, it gets old when it is the same guy doing it every single time. And gets VERY old when there are six of them over, and over and over. I tend to go where needed. The sniper rifle gives one a sense of power. And yes, one sniper can be better than another. But I agree the advantage of that instant scope reduces the amount of work required per kill. Usually I end up being a shock troop when German cause so many people want to hang back. As an American I either follow the road crossers from the first buildings and try to cover them with an M-1 (I mean literally try and protect them) or I am the first guy across the road with a thompson, knowing no one will be covering me lol.

3) The realistic model is so much better that it makes the normal one boring and stupid to me now. I just HATE it when I empty a thompson clip into someone and they shoot me once with their pistol and they win. Not to mention SIX grenades! The name of the game should be Medal of Honor: Grendades.

4) MGs and SMGs ARE underpowered in the normal model, but so are the basic rifles. So snipers and bazookas have far too great an advantage.

5) shotguns are annoying but they did use them. However, you rarely had looneys throwing their life away in mad charges with shotguns like you do in gameland fantasies. But then we all throw caution to the wind sometimes cause it is fun. I never use them, not good at close quater aiming yet.

6) I do not mind the "rockets" either, except I prefer the Wolfenstien idea that you get a loading penalty. Especially since they were a two man weapon in real life and rarely used as antipersonel, but great for taking out the pesky snipers. Now they are like giant shotguns that load as fast as a mauser.

I remain all for Realistic Damage models, limiting the amount of scopes and rockets in a game, but NOT banning them, auto rotating of weapons so everyone gets a chance to be a sniper or BAR man, and FLAMETHROWERS - of course likewise limited and very slow moving.

SPRAYnPRAY · 01-03-2002, 08:08 AM

What a drag. I have that server listed in my favorites(uhh...like I only have 2 in there) cause of the great connection, but lately have been screwing up my MP groove by playing the SP demo.

FF can be great fun(it changes the teamplay dynamic), assuming everyone is responsible, but we all know how often that happens

As for Hannover's "groove" scores: it happens. Especially in this game, where you kill a guy and grab his health pack. If you can do it right, you can stay at full health for most of the game. Drag you had to endure the complaints. That's just the knee-jerk response to the disparity in scores. But the bottom line is that players will gravitate to the level they were meant to play at, once they learn the game. Once that happens, the have-nots will bitch.