[Old Reliable]

rofl germ

[Low spark]

[quote=BallisticWookie]

Originally Posted by "Sgt Stryker":a1cf2

resorting to insults shows that you don't know what you're talking about.

And if thats all you have to say in response to anything regarding Iraq you dont know anything either. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, I still have'nt seen any reason from any of those who oppose action against Saddam why we should'nt go. He's killed thousands of innocent people, used western hostages (children mind you) as human shields so the US wouldnt bomb him, gassed the Kurds, used chemical weapons against Iran and his own soldiers, rules with an iron fist and has anyone opposing him, not in hiding shot, has and is developing chemical and biological weapons and is willing to use them. There is no other way to get rid of a person like this BUT hostility and war. Any other way you suggest is pure fantasy.

The majority of people will support war if the UN give the go ahead, that not good enough for you ? Even after Saddam has fucked the UN around for the past 12 years ? Give me a break. It's time for him to be dealt with severely.

On the Kosovo front:

I distinctly remember seeing quite a few disturbing images on TV about the ethnic cleansing over there, basically like the Jews were treated in WW2, starved, beaten, lined up against walls and shot. There were graves found.....

[url:a1cf2]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/368524.stm[/url:a1cf2]

Just one of the many news pieces related to this issue, ofcourse there were conflicting views, but it still narrows down to same bunch of assholes, and still the fact that mass graves were found. I've read so many accounts about this that I find it offensive that you would even think that atrocities never happened over there, both from the Serbs and unfortunately by NATO with their pathetic bombing campaign. I've read accounts from British SAS troops who were over there, US troops, Dutch, and some Aussie soldiers who were over there, and they saw some pretty fucked up shit. I dont know where you got your info from pal, but it's full of shit. Hell, what about the accounts of Serb snipers shooting civilians in the streets....I've seen pictures, and it fucking happened.

And the reason I insulted you ? Because I dont like you, thats why.[/quote:a1cf2]

My sister had a family from Bosnia stay with them during the confict over there.. They are Muslims, and were lucky to get out with there lives from what I understand.... They went back to Bosnia after the War, and have said how thankful the people are that the U.S. stepped in..,.. they have returned to U.S. a couple of times prior to 9/11. Since then they pulled one their daughters out of the Univeristy of Oregan because the are afraid of what our government might do,, They have another daughter who is married and lives in the states, she can no longer where her traditional clohting because of the insults and jeers she gets. She is also thinking about leaving.
Wookie, I may not see eye to eye with you on Iraq. But thank you for bringing to the front what was going on in Kosovo/Bonsia...

is this nationalistic pride that condemns us to wars...

Napoleon: GIVE ME EUROPE!...ALL OF IT!
Europeans: sure...would you like fries with that?


Hitler: THE ARYAN'S ARE THE MASTER RACE.
Czech: cool!
Polish: OK!
French: No problem!
Russian: Fine!
etc, etc: Sure thing, boss!

Nationalistic pride can be a two edged sword, when you think that your own country is better than another country it can lead you to condemn other people for feeling exactly the same nationalistic pride that you are feeling.

eg. Americans: Somebody dared to attack us. We feel hard done by. We are AMERICANS! we have nationalistic pride! and will defend our nation by removing another countries leader and means of attack. The Iraqi people will thank us.

Iraqi's: Somebody is daring to attack us!. We also feel nationalistic pride, and if a foreign army is going to invade our soveriegn state it will be over our rotting corpse's.

Americans: ok!Because OUR cause is the just and righteous one and yours is evil.

Iraqi's:No it is you who imposed the sanctions on us and we cant feed our children anymore. You are evil!

Americans: No! You are making chemical weapons and giving terrorist weapons of mass d!You are evil!

Iraqi's: You are just as evil, funding brutal dictators and evil regimes in the middle-east!

etc etc etc....You get the point now?

[Innoxx]

Originally Posted by zxcvnm

is this nationalistic pride that condemns us to wars...

Napoleon: GIVE ME EUROPE!...ALL OF IT!
Europeans: sure...would you like fries with that?


Hitler: THE ARYAN'S ARE THE MASTER RACE.
Czech: cool!
Polish: OK!
French: No problem!
Russian: Fine!
etc, etc: Sure thing, boss!

Nationalistic pride can be a two edged sword, when you think that your own country is better than another country it can lead you to condemn other people for feeling exactly the same nationalistic pride that you are feeling.

eg. Americans: Somebody dared to attack us. We feel hard done by. We are AMERICANS! we have nationalistic pride! and will defend our nation by removing another countries leader and means of attack. The Iraqi people will thank us.

Iraqi's: Somebody is daring to attack us!. We also feel nationalistic pride, and if a foreign army is going to invade our soveriegn state it will be over our rotting corpse's.

Americans: ok!Because OUR cause is the just and righteous one and yours is evil.

Iraqi's:No it is you who imposed the sanctions on us and we cant feed our children anymore. You are evil!

Americans: No! You are making chemical weapons and giving terrorist weapons of mass d!You are evil!

Iraqi's: You are just as evil, funding brutal dictators and evil regimes in the middle-east!

etc etc etc....You get the point now?

That sums it up.

[Von Paulus]

Ohhh yeah, Wook was that where NATO were targeting like individual vans and cars and things in their bombings, instead of going after the root of the military problem? On that European Air War show or something?

There was some god awful shit in that show, I mean, WTF is wrong with people?

Also, on the issue of protesters... In Australia, Many World War 2, Korea, and Vietnam vets are marching, Now you guys can say all you want about these people not having fully grasped what's going on, but you can never judge them... These people have seen war, they've lived it, breathed it, and strangely enough, they didn't like what they saw... So don't fuck with these people and say they don't know shit. They fought for their right to be able to have their opinions, and fucked if I'm going to stand by and let some of you pussies tread on them.

Originally Posted by Germ

take us over? taiwan could take that country with a single bombers and a few fighters

umm, taiwan is defenseless, that's why they had to sign the defense pact with the U.S. otherwise china/north korea/anyone else would have taken over in less than a week

[pest]

[quote="Colonel Klink":9c153]Kim is running a nation that is falling apart. With the help with Carter and Clinton. He has the matrials to create a nuke.[/quote:9c153]

Please elaborate on this statement. Tell me how you got the info that lead to this conclusion. Please convinvce me that you have more to back this up than petty partisan politics.

[Colonel Klink]

Originally Posted by pest

Please elaborate on this statement. Tell me how you got the info that lead to this conclusion. Please convinvce me that you have more to back this up than petty partisan politics.

Carter and Clinton gave them those Nuclear Power Plants in order the North Korea can keep its promiss not to build nukes. Well Kim ignored it, and still built nukes. Thats why appesment does not work.

"But if history teaches anything, it teaches that simpleminded appeasement or wishful thinking about our adversaries is folly. It means the betrayal of our past, the squandering of our freedom."~Ronald Reagan

[quote=BallisticWookie][quote="Sgt Stryker":bf0c6]resorting to insults shows that you don't know what you're talking about.
[/quote]

And if thats all you have to say in response to anything regarding Iraq you dont know anything either. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, I still have'nt seen any reason from any of those who oppose action against Saddam why we should'nt go. He's killed thousands of innocent people, used western hostages (children mind you) as human shields so the US wouldnt bomb him, gassed the Kurds, used chemical weapons against Iran and his own soldiers, rules with an iron fist and has anyone opposing him, not in hiding shot, has and is developing chemical and biological weapons and is willing to use them. There is no other way to get rid of a person like this BUT hostility and war. Any other way you suggest is pure fantasy.

The majority of people will support war if the UN give the go ahead, that not good enough for you ? Even after Saddam has fucked the UN around for the past 12 years ? Give me a break. It's time for him to be dealt with severely.

On the Kosovo front:

I distinctly remember seeing quite a few disturbing images on TV about the ethnic cleansing over there, basically like the Jews were treated in WW2, starved, beaten, lined up against walls and shot. There were graves found.....

[url:bf0c6]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/368524.stm[/url:bf0c6]

Just one of the many news pieces related to this issue, ofcourse there were conflicting views, but it still narrows down to same bunch of assholes, and still the fact that mass graves were found. I've read so many accounts about this that I find it offensive that you would even think that atrocities never happened over there, both from the Serbs and unfortunately by NATO with their pathetic bombing campaign. I've read accounts from British SAS troops who were over there, US troops, Dutch, and some Aussie soldiers who were over there, and they saw some pretty fucked up shit. I dont know where you got your info from pal, but it's full of shit. Hell, what about the accounts of Serb snipers shooting civilians in the streets....I've seen pictures, and it fucking happened.

And the reason I insulted you ? Because I dont like you, thats why.[/quote:bf0c6]

funny how your "innocent" Albanians are really drug lords:

------
Kosovo Liberation Army and Albanian Sponsors

Have Well Documented Roots in The Heroin Trade

By Michael C. Ruppert

The Drug Trade Is Entrenched in NATO Politics

An exceptional record of respected media sources from the U.S. and Europe have documented that the Kosovo Liberation Army and their Albanian sponsors are heroin financed organized crime groups struggling to dominate the flow of middle eastern heroin into Europe and even the Eastern United States.

The Christian Science Monitor reported on Oct. 20, 1994: "Disrupted by the Yugoslav conflict, drug trafficking across the Balkans is making a comeback as Albanian mafia barons carve out a new smuggling route to Western Europe, bypassing the peninsula's war zones, according to United Nations and other narcotics experts." To document the increase in traffic through the Albanian Kosovar region The Monitor continued, "For example, just 14 pounds of hard drugs were seized by Hungarian police in 1990, but by August this year [1994] the figure had risen to 1,304 pounds."

In describing the then evolving trade, which was coming to be dominated by Kosovar Albanians The Monitor added, "But European police chiefs fear the conduit will strengthen Kosovo Albanian drug syndicates - some of the most powerful on the continent - whose tentacles have stretched as far as the East coast of the United States…

"From their base in Velki Trnovac in southern Serbia, dubbed the 'Medellin of the Balkans,' Albanian mafia chiefs oversee their European drug operation and are suspected of masterminding the new Balkan route."

Colombia in the Balkans

The highly respected Jane's Intelligence Review from Great Britain went much deeper in predicting the coming crisis

in a February 1, 1995 article entitled The Balkan Medellin . Three paragraphs from that article are so compelling we reprint them here in their entirety.

"The Albanian-dominated region of western Macedonia accounts for a disproportionate share of Macedonia's (FYROM) shrinking GDP. This situation has strengthened Albanophobic sentiments among the ethnic Macedonian majority, especially as a great deal of revenue is thought to derive from Albanian narco-terrorism as well as associated gun-running and cross- border smuggling to and from Albania, Bulgaria and the Kosovo province of Serbia. Although its extent and forms remain in dispute, this rising Albanian economic power is helping to turn the Balkans into a hub of criminality.

"Previously transported to Western Europe through former Yugoslavia, heroin from Turkey, the Transcaucus and points further east is now being increasingly routed to Italy via the Black Sea, Albania, Bulgaria and Macedonia. This is a development that has strengthened the Albanian mafia which is now thought to control 70% of the illegal heroin market in Germany and Switzerland. Closely allied to the powerful Sicilian mafia, the Albanian associates have also greatly benefited from the presence of large numbers of mainly Kosovar Albanians in a number of western European countries; Switzerland alone now has over 100,000 ethnic Albanian residents. As well as providing a perfect cover for Albanian criminals, this diaspora is also a useful source of income for racketeers…

"If left unchecked, this growing Albanian narco-terrorism could lead to a Colombian syndrome in the Southern Balkans, or the emergence of a situation in which the Albanian mafia becomes powerful enough to control one or more states in the region. In practical terms, this will involve either Albania or Macedonia, or both. Politically, this is now being done by channeling growing foreign exchange (forex) profits from narco-terrorism into local governments and political parties. In Albania, the ruling Democratic Party (DP) led by President Sali Berisha is now widely suspected of tacitly tolerating and even directly profiting from drug-trafficking for wider politico-economic reasons, namely the financing of secessionist political parties and other groupings in Kosovo and Macedonia."

These four-year-old evaluations, along with an abundance of other evidence of Albanian-Kosovar mafia expansion paint a whole new picture of what is really happening in Kosovo. Clearly Serbia is legitimately defending itself from an organized crime syndicate taking control of one of its provinces.

How powerful is the Albanian mafia? Well, as far back as 1985 it was powerful enough to frighten New York U.S. attorney Rudy Giulliani who, according to a Wall Street Journal story dated September 9, was receiving special personal protection after prosecuting a heroin case in New York City connected to a ring of powerful Albanian traffickers.

The Journal wrote, "But it is drug trafficking that has gained Albanian organized crime the most notoriety. Some Albanians, according to federal Drug Enforcement Agency officials, are key traders in the 'Balkan connection' the Istanbul-to-Belgrade heroin route. While less well known than the so-called Sicilian and French connections, the Balkan route in some years may move 24% to 40% of the U.S. heroin supply, officials say."

If the Albanians were moving 24 to 40% fourteen years ago then, given their growing control over the traffic through the region, their access to Western Europe and mobility throughout

the world, they may well control more than half of the heroin now entering the United States and law enforcement sources indicate that they control 75% of the heroin entering Western Europe.

A Brilliant Voice From Canada

Michel Chossudovsky, Professor of Economics at the University of Ottawa has written an absolutely brilliant article on the Kosovo war which decimates, in its entirety, the U.S. government's stated version of events and lays bare a plan to re-colonize the region on behalf of Germany and the United States. The meticulously footnoted article sums up the entire Kosovo nightmare in one sentence by saying, "The west was relying on its KLA puppets to rubber-stamp an agreement which would have transformed Kosovo into an occupied territory under Western administration."

After describing in detail the heroin-financed, organized crime, political power structure of the region, and noting carefully that there are other organized political entities not involved in the drug trade speaking on behalf of ethnic Albanians from Kosovo, Chossudovsky documents the military and intelligence alliance between Bonn (now Berlin) and Washington to create the KLA.

"Since the early 1990s, Bonn and Washington have joined hands in establishing their respective spheres of influence in the Balkans. Their intelligence agencies have also collaborated. According to intelligence analyst John Whitley, covert support to the Kosovo rebel army was established between the CIA and Germany's [BND]…The task to create and finance the KLA was initially given to Germany: "They used German uniforms, East German weapons and were financed, in part, with drug money. According to Whitley, the CIA was subsequently instrumental in training and equipping the KLA in Albania."

Giving the overall economic perspective, Chossudovsky notes the effect of often brutal economic sanctions imposed by the IMF and other banking institutions which so often presage a region's descent into apparent anarchy before its rescue by the "benevolent" industrial powers.

"The application of strong 'economic' medicine' under the guidance of the Washington based Bretton Woods institutions had contributed to wrecking Albania's banking system and precipitating the collapse of Albania's economy. The resulting chaos enabled American and European transnationals to carefully position themselves. Several western oil companies [some represented by Richard Armitage] including Occidental, Shell and British Petroleum had their eyes riveted on Albania's abundant and unexplored oil deposits. Western investors were also gawking Albania's extensive reserves of chrome, copper, gold nickel and platinum…"

Given these undeniable facts, and a well documented history which the Internet and publications like this will not forget, the current propaganda and very real war being fought in Kosovo takes on a new and unforgivable light. Ronald Reagan's comparison of the Contras in Central America to America's Founding Fathers is today as comical as it is offensive in light of what we know about the Contra war and how the Contras were financed. The Mujahedeen Freedom Fighters of Afghanistan and Pakistan who we financed with heroin from the same fields which now supply the KLA have

become terrorists who attack embassies and target American citizens. The forgotten Meo tribesman of Laos, who Ted Shackley created with heroin from the Golden Triangle are now basically forgotten - those who survived having been resettled in the U.S. and elsewhere. But the warlords remain in Washington, Berlin, London, the Golden Triangle, the Golden Crescent, Albania and Kosovo.

This writer has said many times and in many places that these wars, destabilizations and "economic cleansings" are planned and orchestrated years, even decades in advance. It was a bittersweet affirmation for me to read Chossudovsky's own analysis:

"The fate of Kosovo had already been carefully laid out prior to the signing of the 1995 Dayton agreement. NATO had entered an unwholesome 'marriage of convenience' with the mafia. "Freedom Fighters were put in place, the narcotics trade enabled Washington and Bonn to "finance the Kosovo conflict" with the ultimate objective of destabilizing the Belgrade government and fully recolonizing the Balkans."

What remains to be seen is whether or not a badly misled American public will be willing to sacrifice the blood of her sons in this utterly dishonest conflict. I read somewhere once that the historical memory of a nation lasts only about one generation. Funny, Vietnam doesn't seem that long ago.

Suggested Reading:

KOSOVO FREEDOM FIGHTERS FINANCED BY ORGANIZED CRIME by Michel Chossudovsky, Department of Economics, University of Ottawa.
Voice Box 1-613-562-5800 ext 1415,
e-mail [email="chossudovsky@sprint.ca"]chossudovsky@sprint.ca[/email]

[quote=BallisticWookie]

Originally Posted by "Sgt Stryker":0f1df

resorting to insults shows that you don't know what you're talking about.

The majority of people will support war if the UN give the go ahead, that not good enough for you ? Even after Saddam has fucked the UN around for the past 12 years ? Give me a break. It's time for him to be dealt with severely.

[/quote:0f1df]

And most are opposed to going in without UN approval.
Did I say I won't support a war if the UN approves?
I do not believe I did, you made that up. The UN has not yet approved, and the White House still has not turned their (top secret?) "proof" over to the UN, who are apparently having trouble finding anything other than a handful of empty 122mm "Katyusha" type rockets.

Let's get back to the original argument of what to do with protestors, if you noticed soem of the, let's say, less mature members here have said they should all be shot. Shooting civvies? How does that make those persons better than Saddam?

[Colonel Klink]

[quote="Sgt Stryker":73ca0] resorting to insults
And most are opposed to going in without UN approval.
Did I say I won't support a war if the UN approves?
I do not believe I did, you made that up. The UN has not yet approved, and the White House still has not turned their (top secret?) "proof" over to the UN, who are apparently having trouble finding anything other than a handful of empty 122mm "Katyusha" type rockets.

Let's get back to the original argument of what to do with protestors, if you noticed soem of the, let's say, less mature members here have said they should all be shot. Shooting civvies? How does that make those persons better than Saddam?[/quote:73ca0]

Powell has allready gave them the proof.

[quote="Von Paulus":a7293]Ohhh yeah, Wook was that where NATO were targeting like individual vans and cars and things in their bombings, instead of going after the root of the military problem? On that European Air War show or something?

There was some god awful shit in that show, I mean, WTF is wrong with people?

Also, on the issue of protesters... In Australia, Many World War 2, Korea, and Vietnam vets are marching, Now you guys can say all you want about these people not having fully grasped what's going on, but you can never judge them... These people have seen war, they've lived it, breathed it, and strangely enough, they didn't like what they saw... So don't fuck with these people and say they don't know shit. They fought for their right to be able to have their opinions, and fucked if I'm going to stand by and let some of you pussies tread on them.[/quote:a7293]

AMEN

[pest]

[quote="Colonel Klink":0c334]

Originally Posted by pest

Please elaborate on this statement. Tell me how you got the info that lead to this conclusion. Please convinvce me that you have more to back this up than petty partisan politics.

Carter and Clinton gave them those Nuclear Power Plants in order the North Korea can keep its promiss not to build nukes. Well Kim ignored it, and still built nukes. Thats why appesment does not work.
[/quote:0c334]

Please explain how carter gave korea a soviet nuclear facility. oOo: Also please explain how it is clintons fault that n korea is not living up to their end of a 1994 treaty. Could it be because bush renigged on the US' promise to provide oil for heat in the middle of the winter? All a knee jerk reaction over a standard international arms deals? I dont like the idea of n korea having nukes, but look at the sequence of events before you use the blanket excuse of "it clintons fault". You even dug carter up on this one too. You just keep losing credibility every time you speak.

I cant stress enough, the importance of researching some of the drivel you hear on rush, before you repeat it in company of people that know better.

[Colonel Klink]

Originally Posted by pest

Please explain how carter gave korea a soviet nuclear facility. oOo: Also please explain how it is clintons fault that n korea is not living up to their end of a 1994 treaty. Could it be because bush renigged on the US' promise to provide oil for heat in the middle of the winter? All a knee jerk reaction over a standard international arms deals? I dont like the idea of n korea having nukes, but look at the sequence of events before you use the blanket excuse of "it clintons fault". You even dug carter up on this one too. You just keep losing credibility every time you speak.

I cant stress enough, the importance of researching some of the drivel you hear on rush, before you repeat it in company of people that know better.

Carter was at the peace talks, but Clinton got all the credit. They were appesing the North. We took the oil out of North when they told the world they have nukes. So its their problem! You should ask Kim why he spends money on the military but not on his own people.

[Jedi Marksman]

[quote="Colonel Klink":a96c7]

Originally Posted by pest

Please explain how carter gave korea a soviet nuclear facility. oOo: Also please explain how it is clintons fault that n korea is not living up to their end of a 1994 treaty. Could it be because bush renigged on the US' promise to provide oil for heat in the middle of the winter? All a knee jerk reaction over a standard international arms deals? I dont like the idea of n korea having nukes, but look at the sequence of events before you use the blanket excuse of "it clintons fault". You even dug carter up on this one too. You just keep losing credibility every time you speak.

I cant stress enough, the importance of researching some of the drivel you hear on rush, before you repeat it in company of people that know better.

Carter was at the peace talks, but Clinton got all the credit. They were appesing the North. We took the oil out of North when they told the world they have nukes. So its their problem! You should ask Kim why he spends money on the military but not on his own people.[/quote:a96c7]

That would be a damned good question, Klink. N. Korea just threw an elaborate celebration for Kim and much of the world media was criticizing it, saying how his country is impoverished yet he is having lavish parties in his own honor. hake: