[ninty]

http://www.canada.com/national/story.ht ... 952980d04b

It's funny how it's always the citizen's government taking away civil liberties and never the terrorists themselves.

"In order to stop the terrorists from taking your liberties, we're going to have to take some liberties away from you."

The first step for canada?

The US UK and Australia are all getting ID cards. The topic was brought up in Canada bout a year aro and was wuickly shot down. I'm sure it will make its way back again.

[Coleman]

if you're doing nothing wrong, I don't see what the big deal is. Please try to convince me that this is a terrible evil. (I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I just want to know the cons to this.)

[ninty]

Exactly.

The people who are doing nothing wrong are the ones being punished. I'm not saying this is a really bad thing. I am implying that this is the start of things to come.

First it's a privacy issue. I'd rather be able to walk around without having a camera watching my every step. I haven't done anything wrong. Why should I suffer as a result?

The point is, governments say in order to protect me, they have to do these security measures, when in reality, all the measures do is give the government more power over the people, not stopping terrorism at all.

When you have to present your National ID card to get on a bus, are you going to say, "It doesn't bother me because I’m doing nothing wrong"?

There has to be a line. Governments are using terrorist acts to move controversial legislation that would never pass without the acts of terrorism. Everyone supports it because "we won't let the terrorists win. This bill will prevent terrorists for doing bad things" when in reality it hampers normal everyday people from going about their usual business.

Will anyone say anything when a martial law is declared to protect the citizens from terrorists?

Will anyone say anything when military and police become one force?

These are extreme examples, I know, however, I see everything happening from the result of sept 11 as the beginning of governments gaining more control over their people in the name of terrorism prevention.

The government is supposed to work for the people. The will of the people is what makes up a democracy. Are any government leaders listening to the people?

Also the other thing is that first cameras are introduced. Then an ID card. Then a national database. The video cameras don't seem like a big deal until you factor in everything else. It can be sued as a part of a larger network to gather information.

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, to the Penn State Legislature

[Coleman]

[quote:4eaa7]I haven't done anything wrong. Why should I suffer as a result? [/quote:4eaa7]What is your suffering if you pass by a camera? That's what I want to know.

[quote:4eaa7]The point is, governments say in order to protect me, they have to do these security measures, when in reality, all the measures do is give the government more power over the people, not stopping terrorism at all.[/quote:4eaa7]I just simply don't agree with this statement. Larger security forces have been known to prevent things from happening whether it is the airport checking shoes or if it is a metal dector at the gates. just the known fact that the forces are checking for these things changes things for terrorists. I highly doubt that a terrorist will try to get on a plane with their shoes loaded with plastic explosives again.

And when I think of an "evil" act, I can think of some things that are gained by doing so. What will the government gain? Power. I don't understand what they can be happy over when 'you say power'. Alot of people say GWB is a power-hungry man when he tried to pass the Patriot Act. Well, what the hell did he gain from passing this bill? I don't understand.

[ninty]

Originally Posted by Coleman

What is your suffering if you pass by a camera? That's what I want to know.

I'm talking about the bigger picture. But I still "suffer". I'm now being tracked every time I get on and off a transit system. Why does anyone need to know that? It's a privacy issue. Plain and simple. And when cameras are coupled with other items, the overall plan becomes less and less desirable.

[quote:b7012]I just simply don't agree with this statement. Larger security forces have been known to prevent things from happening whether it is the airport checking shoes or if it is a metal dector at the gates. just the known fact that the forces are checking for these things changes things for terrorists. I highly doubt that a terrorist will try to get on a plane with their shoes loaded with plastic explosives again.[/quote:b7012]

I'm not at all talkinga bout security forces. I'm talkinga cameras, id cards and other things that say they need to be implemented in order to stop terrorism.

Tell me how a video camera is going to stop a terrorist. Tell me how a card is going to stop a terrorist. They can't, so why are these programs needed?

[quote:b7012]And when I think of an "evil" act, I can think of some things that are gained by doing so. What will the government gain? Power. I don't understand what they can be happy over when 'you say power'. Alot of people say GWB is a power-hungry man when he tried to pass the Patriot Act. Well, what the hell did he gain from passing this bill? I don't understand.[/quote:b7012]

GWB is a puppet. The government gains control over the people. Why wouldn't a government want to gain more control? That means that they can implement any program they wish.

Read up:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/Rebui ... fenses.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_fo ... an_Century

The world is to gain.

[Coleman]

Originally Posted by ninty

GWB is a puppet. The government gains control over the people. Why wouldn't a government want to gain more control? That means that they can implement any program they wish.

but what do they gain by putting these programs? Is it just the satisfaction of "ohhhhhh look at us. We can do what we want?" Well, the people have the last say if they want to change something. Power of the vote is pretty awesome.

[ninty]

Originally Posted by Coleman

but what do they gain by putting these programs? Is it just the satisfaction of "ohhhhhh look at us. We can do what we want?" Well, the people have the last say if they want to change something. Power of the vote is pretty awesome.

Money domination over countries like china russia and india, oil, other resources etc. Same as the Roman empire.

Typically in a democracy the people would have the last say. Unfortunatley, in this case, that isn't true.

2000 - Al Gore actually got more votes than Bush in the 2000 election, however Bush won more electoral votes.

2004 - I know you will harshly disagree with my, however I spend a lot of time reading on the subject: 2004 was without a doubt a stolen election. Everything from voter intimidation, to vote tampering.

It is a recorded fact that in come counties, Bush had more votes than people that lived in that particular county. I've read many tales of this. Too many to go into detail.

A quick 10 minute video if you like:

http://veredictum.com/stolenelection2004-256.ram

[Coleman]

Originally Posted by ninty

Money domination over countries like china russia and india, oil, other resources etc. Same as the Roman empire.

Typically in a democracy the people would have the last say. Unfortunatley, in this case, that isn't true.

2000 - Al Gore actually got more votes than Bush in the 2000 election, however Bush won more electoral votes.

2004 - I know you will harshly disagree with my, however I spend a lot of time reading on the subject: 2004 was without a doubt a stolen election. Everything from voter intimidation, to vote tampering.

It is a recorded fact that in come counties, Bush had more votes than people that lived in that particular county. I've read many tales of this. Too many to go into detail.

A quick 10 minute video if you like:

http://veredictum.com/stolenelection2004-256.ram

i appreciate the fact that you found the video for me and all, but what i was really wondering is what kind of rewards will they get from implimenting ID cards? What is their gain? (in power on their side of things)

I know that there are a plethora of objects/concepts that are to be gained from power like you listed. The cameras don't seem to be giving any politicians boners from power, in my opinion.

[ninty]

The ability to track anyone and everyone. The ability to track illegal immigrants.

There is also a clause in the bill that allows homeland security to add anything to the card that they want.

[quote:205ec]
IN GENERAL – Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall have the authority to waive, and shall waive, all laws such Secretary, in such Secretary's sole discretion, determines necessary to ensure expeditious construction of the barriers and roads under this section.

NO JUDICIAL REVIEW – Notwithstanding any other provision of law (statutory or nonstatutory), no court, administrative agency, or other entity shall have jurisdiction – "(A) to hear any cause or claim arising from any action undertaken, or any decision made, by the Secretary of Homeland Security pursuant to paragraph (1)"; or "(B) to order compensatory, declaratory, injunctive, equitable, or any other relief for damage alleged to arise from any such action or decision." [/quote:205ec]

Again, the cameras are only a part of a larger ability to track and control a population.

[Coleman]

thanks for that insight. You showed me what I was asking for.


The secretary having power over the Justices is kinda fucked up. I wonder how they'll try to impliment that.