SD bans almost all abortions, challenges Roe v. Wade - Page 5

TGB! · 02-27-2006, 05:07 PM

[quote:bf077]OTHER PEOPLES DECISIONS TO MAKE![/quote:bf077]

Again - if a 13 yr old makes the decision to have consensual sex and marry an adult - totally ok with you and undeserving of our attention?

Stammer · 02-27-2006, 05:22 PM

[quote="TGB!":e17ac][quote:e17ac]OTHER PEOPLES DECISIONS TO MAKE![/quote:e17ac]

Again - if a 13 yr old makes the decision to have consensual sex and marry an adult - totally ok with you and undeserving of our attention?[/quote:e17ac]

If that's what happens to float your boat and the 13 year olds, then sure. Not my concern.

The main point is, it's not your life, and it's not your decision to make for someone based on your own personal taboos, I find the idea of it disgusting but it's not my life so have a good time with your 13 year old Husband/Wife.

Plus TGB! I have to say that's one of the worst "I gotcha now" rebuttals ever...

TGB! · 02-27-2006, 05:33 PM

[quote:34b5b]Plus TGB! I have to say that's one of the worst "I gotcha now" rebuttals ever...[/quote:34b5b]

Your childish assertion is that the personal lives of American citizens is none of the laws business so long as "the law" is being adhered to, and that we shouldnt legislate morality - two opinions which go contrary to what we do EVERYDAY.

The law butts it "nose" into the lives of American citizens everyday and some would say we are the better for it. Everything from how you treat your kids, to how many people you can marry - its ALL personal lives regulated and metered. YOU may have no problem with a 13 yr old fucking an adult - but many people legitimately would (the parents for instance). It is RIDICULOUS to assume that you're an island unto yourself, and that your actions and their consequences are limited to yourself.

As for legislating morality - be glad people think that its a WRONG to rob, steal, and commit other acts, especially for someone living in NJ.

c312 · 02-27-2006, 05:37 PM

you are all missing the point of my argument. People who don't support abortion are usually people who beleive the fetus is a person. Therefore, they beleive aborting that person is murder. Saying that, you can't say, "it's not your fetus, why do you care?" because that would be equivalent to saying, "you're not the one committing murder, why do you care?" If people genuinely think you are terminating an innocent life, they have a moral obligation to object to it, even if it's someone else doing it. Just as we have a moral obligation to try to stop people from killing there husbands, wives, etc... Why can't you understand that? I don't care if you think that fetuses aren't people, but you have to understand the argument of the people who do in order to understand their position and debate it, which half of you can't seem to do.

Trip, you don't have to think a fetus is a person, but that doesn't mean it isn't because you say it isn't. There are loads of people who think they are, your opinion on the issue is not an end all solution. And if you want to provide an example like the "30,000 civilian deaths that their support of their government's foreign policy caused, in a war based on false pretenses." I would pick one that isn't arguable.

Stammer, I have no clue what you are talking about in the assisted suicide part of your post with the "turn the other cheek" reference, do you even know what that quote means? Please elaborate if you do, because it makes no sense as it is. And Stammer, you are being too general in the classification of what the right wing is "telling" people to do. All those issues are much more complex than you made them, and by no means do right wingers have a consensus on all of them.

Poseidon · 02-27-2006, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c312

you are all missing the point of my argument. People who don't support abortion are usually people who beleive the fetus is a person. Therefore, they beleive aborting that person is murder. Saying that, you can't say, "it's not your fetus, why do you care?" because that would be equivalent to saying, "you're not the one committing murder, why do you care?" If people genuinely think you are terminating an innocent life, they have a moral obligation to object to it, even if it's someone else doing it. Just as we have a moral obligation to try to stop people from killing there husbands, wives, etc... Why can't you understand that? I don't care if you think that fetuses aren't people, but you have to understand the argument of the people who do in order to understand their position and debate it, which half of you can't seem to do.

Nicely summed it up. I personally think that once its fertilized and settled in the womb, it shouldnt be removed unless its under certain circumstances because from then in my opinion it is a human. I cannot stand it when people want/have abortions just because they dont feel like having a baby.

I personally think the abortion process should be regulated, so each case should be reviewed, and a decision made from a qualified person. and an appeal process/ second opinion should also be put in place.

Stammer · 02-27-2006, 05:55 PM

[quote="TGB!":1aad7]Your childish assertion is that the personal lives of American citizens is none of the laws business so long as "the law" is being adhered to, and that we shouldnt legislate morality - two opinions which go contrary to what we do EVERYDAY.[/quote:1aad7]

And your pompous assertion that the Government has every right to regulate the personal lives and reproductive lives of it's citizens is a mockery of what it means to have your own say in your own business. Ever heard of something called "personal responsibility"? I don't need you or some evangelical telling my wife/girlfriend whomever that she can't have an abortion because it's not kosher in someone else's view, or that two gays can't get married because it disrupts your Religious beliefs or that assisted suicide is wrong because people shouldn't have a say in their own death but you have every right to decide the fate of an individual because you hold the illusion of moral superiority.

[quote="TGB!":1aad7]The law butts it "nose" into the lives of American citizens everyday and some would say we are the better for it. Everything from how you treat your kids, to how many people you can marry - its ALL personal lives regulated and metered.[/quote:1aad7]

And...? Some laws cross the line with an individuals right to dictate their own life, when it comes to theft and murder you need more then one person to do that and I'm going out on a limb here and assuming that most people aren't going to consent to being murdered and stolen from.

oOo:

[quote="TGB!":1aad7]YOU may have no problem with a 13 yr old fucking an adult - but many people legitimately would (the parents for instance). It is RIDICULOUS to assume that you're an island unto yourself, and that your actions and their consequences are limited to yourself.[/quote:1aad7]

HA HA HA! Who's to say what legitimate marriage is? What if the parents said it was alright for their son/daughter to marry? You assume to much about people based on your own taboos.

[quote="TGB!":1aad7]As for legislating morality - be glad people think that its a WRONG to rob, steal, and commit other acts, especially for someone living in NJ.[/quote:1aad7]

Umm? Last time I checked those all involve another person my argument is based around an individuals right to decide what to do on their "own little island". Last time I check to steal or murder you needed another person to murder or steal from. Assisted suicide, or abortion is a personal choice not something to be regulated because some one feels it's wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by C132

Stammer, I have no clue what you are talking about in the assisted suicide part of your post with the "turn the other cheek" reference, do you even know what that quote means? Please elaborate if you do, because it makes no sense as it is. And Stammer, you are being too general in the classification of what the right wing is "telling" people to do. All those issues are much more complex than you made them, and by no means do right wingers have a consensus on all of them.

The "turn the other cheek" portion of my post had nothing to do with suicide it had to do with the execution of a prisoner, if the Religious right is so big on the bible and life why not "turn the other cheek" and forgive people for their past sins? Isn't that the point of forgiveness or repentance?

How are they more complex, because they don't appear complex to me. You make them complex.

Abortion - Woman wants to abort a fetus.

Assisted Suicide - Someone wants to kill themselves due to a severe medical condition which will eventually kill them in a short period of time.

Gay Marriage - A same sex couple wishes to marry.

Sorry I don't see the complexity.

TGB! · 02-27-2006, 06:08 PM

[quote:aa5ca]And your pompous assertion that the Government has every right to regulate the personal lives and reproductive lives of it's citizens is a mockery of what it means to have your own say in your own business.[/quote:aa5ca]

Wah - didnt say that, but if its the only way for you make your point - go right ahead. Big Bad Government has ALWAYS been involved in your life, from telling you what you can/cannot eat/drink, who you can/cannot be involved with, where you can/cannot go. Your lame tract that whatever BB says/does is wrong - is pedantry at its worst.

[quote:aa5ca] don't need you or some evangelical telling my wife/girlfriend whomever that she can't have an abortion because it's not kosher in someone else's view, or that two gays can't get married because it disrupts your Religious beliefs or that assisted suicide is wrong because people shouldn't have a say in their own death but you have every right to decide the fate of an individual because you hold the illusion of moral superiority.[/quote:aa5ca]

Again - pedantric response to the argument. Who says every opposition to abortion, gay marraige, and assisted suicide is one based in religion? I need to be a religious nut to think a fetus is a living thing imbued with "life". I need to be a religious nut to think that I shouldnt have to have pay for societies "tolerance" and "acceptance of gays? I need to be a religious nut to think that leglislating a "pain threshold" for terminal patients is a slippery slope we dont want to go down?

Get the hell out of your local JC and the campus SOCIALIST CLUB and get into the real world.

Tripper · 02-27-2006, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c312

Trip, you don't have to think a fetus is a person, but that doesn't mean it isn't because you say it isn't. There are loads of people who think they are, your opinion on the issue is not an end all solution. And if you want to provide an example like the "30,000 civilian deaths that their support of their government's foreign policy caused, in a war based on false pretenses." I would pick one that isn't arguable.

I never said I didn't think fetus' were ALIVE - I said they weren't conscious. That's not a 'belief' that's a FACT. A plant is alive....and yet you don't hesitate to rip those out if they look ugly. A cow is alive....and yet you don't hesitate to tear your teeth into a big piece of beef steak.

The 30,000 casualty statement was a reference to Stammer's post:
I was making a generalised comparison based on his post about "typical" right wingers (Mainly the ones I've encountered on this forum) who seem to all express themselves on moral homeland issues against such things as abortion, euthenasia, etc and then not even seem to give two shits about the incredible statistic of civilian casualties in the Iraq war which they strongly support. I may not be talking about all right wing conservatives here, but the vast majority of the ones who post on this forum certainly present themselves this way....
Don't you feel like you're contradicting yourself when you sit so strongly for life when it comes to domestic issues, but when it's foreign policy it's "who gives a shit, we're doing what's best for them." ??

Johnj · 02-27-2006, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tripper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnj

So Mad what your saying is your for KILLING BABIES if the mother doesn't want to be bothered with them.

And as long as we call it something else, so it doesn't sound so fucking bad.

No actually, it would be KILLING FETUS'S - It isn't a "baby" until it leaves the womb. Now who's calling it something else to make themselves feel better.

Ok so it make you feel better to call it a fetus, which is Latin for BABY, then we'll call it a fetus. Your position then is that it's ok to kill them, right.

Pyro · 02-27-2006, 07:47 PM

Fuck all you dudes who masturbate are killing potential dudes or dudettes.

My stance is...if it doens't know of its being...it isn't gonna to care if it gets popped.

Johnj · 02-27-2006, 08:03 PM

The point isn't that the baby...errr fetus knows it's being killed, it's that you know it's being killed.

c312 · 02-27-2006, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tripper

Quote:

Originally Posted by c312

Trip, you don't have to think a fetus is a person, but that doesn't mean it isn't because you say it isn't. There are loads of people who think they are, your opinion on the issue is not an end all solution. And if you want to provide an example like the "30,000 civilian deaths that their support of their government's foreign policy caused, in a war based on false pretenses." I would pick one that isn't arguable.

I never said I didn't think fetus' were ALIVE - I said they weren't conscious. That's not a 'belief' that's a FACT. A plant is alive....and yet you don't hesitate to rip those out if they look ugly. A cow is alive....and yet you don't hesitate to tear your teeth into a big piece of beef steak.

The 30,000 casualty statement was a reference to Stammer's post:
I was making a generalised comparison based on his post about "typical" right wingers (Mainly the ones I've encountered on this forum) who seem to all express themselves on moral homeland issues against such things as abortion, euthenasia, etc and then not even seem to give two shits about the incredible statistic of civilian casualties in the Iraq war which they strongly support. I may not be talking about all right wing conservatives here, but the vast majority of the ones who post on this forum certainly present themselves this way....
Don't you feel like you're contradicting yourself when you sit so strongly for life when it comes to domestic issues, but when it's foreign policy it's "who gives a shit, we're doing what's best for them." ??

You can't compare human beings to cows and plants, they are obviously different.

You also can't compare it to the innocents killed in Iraq, they were killed accidentally, not deliberately.

Now if you're talking about us not doing anything about people in Africa who are getting killed or other places where people are killed and we don't seem interested, I understand that. I think the United STates should make more of an effort to help in those situations, but other than that, I don't think the comparisons you are making are accurate at all.

Stammer, there are obviously people who are against abortion for religious reasons but I would dare to say that most who are against abortions are against them because they feel it is murder, not because they think the Bible says it is a sin. I don't think religion is as involved with this issue as you think it is.

Again, this thread is stupid. Everytime we argue abortion here it comes to the basic fact of whether or not you beleive that aborting a fetus is equivalent to taking life. If you don't have that premise, the argument is nonsensical, it's stupid and it will never generate a solution because the fact of the matter is that the opinions on the issue are based on almost completely that one fact and if there isn't understanding that that fact is a core, unchangeable premise of the person's beleif who is arguing, it is useless to argue.

Tripper · 02-27-2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c312

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tripper

Quote:

Originally Posted by c312

Trip, you don't have to think a fetus is a person, but that doesn't mean it isn't because you say it isn't. There are loads of people who think they are, your opinion on the issue is not an end all solution. And if you want to provide an example like the "30,000 civilian deaths that their support of their government's foreign policy caused, in a war based on false pretenses." I would pick one that isn't arguable.

I never said I didn't think fetus' were ALIVE - I said they weren't conscious. That's not a 'belief' that's a FACT. A plant is alive....and yet you don't hesitate to rip those out if they look ugly. A cow is alive....and yet you don't hesitate to tear your teeth into a big piece of beef steak.

The 30,000 casualty statement was a reference to Stammer's post:
I was making a generalised comparison based on his post about "typical" right wingers (Mainly the ones I've encountered on this forum) who seem to all express themselves on moral homeland issues against such things as abortion, euthenasia, etc and then not even seem to give two shits about the incredible statistic of civilian casualties in the Iraq war which they strongly support. I may not be talking about all right wing conservatives here, but the vast majority of the ones who post on this forum certainly present themselves this way....
Don't you feel like you're contradicting yourself when you sit so strongly for life when it comes to domestic issues, but when it's foreign policy it's "who gives a shit, we're doing what's best for them." ??

You can't compare human beings to cows and plants, they are obviously different.

You also can't compare it to the innocents killed in Iraq, they were killed accidentally, not deliberately.

Now if you're talking about us not doing anything about people in Africa who are getting killed or other places where people are killed and we don't seem interested, I understand that. I think the United STates should make more of an effort to help in those situations, but other than that, I don't think the comparisons you are making are accurate at all.

Stammer, there are obviously people who are against abortion for religious reasons but I would dare to say that most who are against abortions are against them because they feel it is murder, not because they think the Bible says it is a sin. I don't think religion is as involved with this issue as you think it is.

Again, this thread is stupid. Everytime we argue abortion here it comes to the basic fact of whether or not you beleive that aborting a fetus is equivalent to taking life. If you don't have that premise, the argument is nonsensical, it's stupid and it will never generate a solution because the fact of the matter is that the opinions on the issue are based on almost completely that one fact and if there isn't understanding that that fact is a core, unchangeable premise of the person's beleif who is arguing, it is useless to argue.

Whatever.

The point I'm trying to make now is that you absolutely contradict yourself with your views.

It's so fucking pig-ignorant. You have been one of the most outspoken in your support of the war - and you have also been one of the most outspoken against killing unborn babies. When you supported your presidents actions to invade Iraq, you were supporting the potential deaths of thousands of people who have lived their lives innocently....and then you say there is no case for aborting babies, totally denouncing it....

You never once commented on whether or not you believe it's okay in some circumstances to abort a child (i.e in the situation of rape - which I prompted as a question a few times in this thread already) so I'm finding it hard to figure where you are coming from....but based on what I have read from you I'd say you were hard-line against it in all forms. Regulated or unregulated.

To say that and then not speak out against your government and instead totally support the actions just seem hypocritical....To be so supportive of a POTENTIAL life, and then so uncaring and attempting to justify life being cut short - It doesn't make sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnJ

The point isn't that the baby...errr fetus knows it's being killed, it's that you know it's being killed.

You all knew there would be civilian casualties in the Iraq war and yet you support that (which is fine and dandy) but then to go and make such a huge deal about aborting babies and to strike such a hardline against it is really weird.

I just don't get some of you conservatives at times, at least the whiney liberals seem to not be as mixed up with their morals....

Pyro · 02-27-2006, 10:04 PM

I don't know this just reminds me how USa wa spissed at Germany in the 1936 Berlin Olympics for not wanting any jews to participate...but didn't even congradulate Jessie Owens on his medals...Hell Hitler gave the guy more respect.

It's just more hypocrisy...and i don't understand...but Tripper makes a good point about sending troops to Iraq knowing they'd die...but killing an unborn child before it isn't even close to being human imo...is wrong?

TGB! · 02-27-2006, 10:05 PM

[quote:b9b51]You have been one of the most outspoken in your support of the war - and you have also been one of the most outspoken against killing unborn babies. When you supported your presidents actions to invade Iraq, you were supporting the potential deaths of thousands of people who have lived their lives innocently....and then you say there is no case for aborting babies, totally denouncing it....[/quote:b9b51]

TRIPPER dont play obtuse - youre above these kinds of logical traps. One act is done without concrete evidence that innocent life will be lost; the other is an EXPLICIT act to snuff out life.

Death, and loss of life is only one by-product of many in regards to WAR; abortion only has one by-product - death.