Reality mod - Page 4

ApostleX3000 · 01-24-2002, 12:46 AM

God...there is certainly a lot of arrogant snots on this board. Hey so called multiplay virtuosos...machismo left with the 70's.

sk8save1 · 01-24-2002, 12:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In CPR the tactically smart player dominates...rush in like a quak-head and you die. That means, as in real life, the un-skilled spray-and-pray soldier can get kills too.
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree. I tend to rush too often and more often than not... I die. And boy do I hate to wait the remainder of the 5 minutes to go at it again. That too is my motivation, try to not die and not have to wait to play again.

I wish they would make a game that would have the tactical expertise of Ghost Recon and the playability of MOHAA. Ghost Recon has to many factors (and keys to remember) and MOHAA not enough reality such as limping, crawling, blood, ect...

IMO, just add some limping, crawling, one shot almost any where kills and blood to the actual MOHAA and it would be that much more cool to play (without all those keys to remember).

Also IMO, death count is as important as kills no?

First Man Down · 01-24-2002, 01:30 AM

Fantasically, you've all missed my point - again! Please, if you're really interested, read my posts carefully. The lack of response leads me to believe that I'm on to something...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by WileyP:
"MoH is not ment to be a run and gun game,but to be played by using tactics and strategy"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is the single biggest crock of shit I've ever heard. If those guys designed the game to be played by using tactics and strategy why did they design maps that don't facilitate this? Sounds like lip-service to me.

I appreciate the player's desire for increased realism, but it will only work when two conditions are met:

1. The game needs to be originally designed so that realism hinders "Rambo-style" hero tactics from individuals by putting a penalty on being shot. For example, limping, crawling, etc. (See Operation Flashpoint). Weapons obviously need to deliever appropriate damage and maps need to be created so that they represent real environments. None of that is represented in MOHAA or any mod for it.

2. There needs to be a conscious effort on the behalf of the participants to adhere to squad tactics and team co-operation. This is impossible on a public server. You will always have a "Rambo-type" with the intent to score as many frags as possible.

THEREFORE, realism cannot exist in MOHAA MP as it stands now.

Still, CPR sounds suspect. I imagine if those who champion CPR were as good in regular play, I doubt they'd care about altering the experience to begin with. It sounds to be that you're frustrated with being killed.

OK, you want realism, but to what end? Isn't the object of playing a game to win? By either completing the objective or killing the most players you win? Well, I can accomplish both, on CPR and regular. I prefer regular because it's more of a challenge.

Perhaps I'm the one missing the essential point, but to me by playing CPR "you're getting your realism, but those players with skill are losing their learned advantage and poor players are given a boost in their ability."

You're trying to alter a game in a way that it shouldn't be. You can't have one aspect real to suit your skill, but not another. It's this reason why many of us believe the CPR is less challenging. By seeing regular-style players as simple run and gun types, you're demeaning our ability. Many lash back and call CPR players "newbies." I don't have to liken them to such undesirable terms, but I honestly do think that CPR requires far less skill to accomplish either an objective or obtain the most frags.

Read carefully the points I've made. I'm interested in having someone properly debate the issues I've raised.

SS.SGW~Siggi · 01-24-2002, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by Madrebel:

"you understand absolutely nothing about the q3 network paradigm.

ALL GAMES ARE NOT EQUAL. sim games handle networking diffrently than UT/Q3/Tribes/etc.

ive tried explaining it before but your ignorce overcomes any desire of yours to learn something new."

Oh, I get it Madrebel...how dim of me. The amazing Q3 engine...so when a client's packets totally stop departing and arriving the MoH code on the server telepathically computes where the client's model is going, registers hits and transmits those calculations back to the client who sees himself die on his screen. The server also takes over the client's moving model when no packets are arriving and computes it's course of travel for the lucky player on the server-side so that he can continue to shoot it.

Alternatively, when packets from the client arrive late, or not at all, the model server-side stutters...no packet, freeze...gets packet, moves...called stutter. Otherwise known as a difficult target. Mmm...yes, I'm completely ignorant about lag. Snort. Carry on mate, make a bigger and bigger twat of yourself.

Madrebel's loser whines:

"There was bad lag...that's why I kept dying...
I don't like CPR, it's no skill BS."

(Translation: In non-CPR my sniper-rifle still kills with one shot but I have the non-CPR magic resistance to bullets). Oh ya, I can see why you like non-CPR, eh? Mr One-Shot-One-Kill, but god forbid your opponents can kill you with one shot from their SMG/MG etc etc, eh?

Personally, if I stick my head out to snipe somebody, and his buddy gets an SMG round into my chest I'm more than happy to die. I should get a one-shot kill, and not have to worry about the guy's buddy? How nice for the non-CPR snipers...how bogus for every other poor bugger. And probably why everyone is so totally sick to death of sniper-rifles in non-CPR games.

Oh...prediction coming in...Madrebel howls loudly..."I never use the sniper-rifle! I am god of all weps, I rule, I own everyone!!!" ROTFLMAO.

If you were any more transparent you'd need a fucking flak-jacket to stop birds flying thru your twat ass.

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SSDivisionWikingSGW

[This message has been edited by SS.SGW~Siggi (edited January 24, 2002).]

SS.SGW~Siggi · 01-24-2002, 01:56 AM

Ok First-Man-Down, let's get to the bones of this...needing more bullets to kill your opponent requires more skill, correct?

So person 'A' sneaks up on person 'B' and opens fire. Person 'A' starts his bee-dance and fires back. Suddenly his awesome skill kicks in (circle-strafing etc) and it's person 'B' (the guy with the skill to catch person 'A' napping) who dies...defeated by some twat Q3 bullshit move called 'Circle-Strafing'. I'm amazed they don't teach it in training..."When confronted by an enemy at close quarters commence running around in circles. If you get a chance, hop like a little bunny-rabbit too."

Here's the reality...non-CPR stops no-skill Q3 pricks dying from the bullets of a skilled tactician and gives them the chance to employ bullshit arcade moves to avoid the killing round AND fire back at the poor bugger who thought he was playing with adults.

Nothing fills me with more contempt online than seeing some muppet bunny-hopping across the terrain as bullets rain down on him. Or seeing two jerks running around each other, guns blazing and totally oblivious to the fact they look like complete morons.

Can't think tactically? Got no idea how to out-think your opponent? No problemo...just learn how to play the PC keyboard like Motzart on Special-K and make like a spastic with 40,000 volts up his arse. Yeah, that's real quality gaming. Or it was when DOOM was cutting edge.

I don't see CPR players whining about non-CPR servers...but I sure see plenty of non-CPR players squealing like spoiled brats. Want the whole sand-pit for yourselves, eh? And if you can't have it...stampy-stampy go sulk in the corner and cry "Foul play!"

Quake is ooooooooold!!! Get over it, forget the BS 'skillz' you learned with it and get real. MoH is already simplistic enough without you whining about the few servers that attempt to make it more challenging.

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SSDivisionWikingSGW

[This message has been edited by SS.SGW~Siggi (edited January 24, 2002).]

madrebel · 01-24-2002, 01:57 AM

i "brag" because my skills as a player were attacked.

some claim i "dont have those kinds of skills"

come play me if you want to see "my kind of skills". youll find im alot more formidable than you think. And no, im not "the best in the world" there are many better than i which is why i play. wtf would be the point if noone could beat you? that would be very boring.

as for attacking my intellect/spelling blah blah whatever.

i type really fast, i dont care to take the time to proof read because well, i post from work alot. i dont need to take even more time to go through and check what i wrote for any mispellings. frankly i dont care.

in real life i dont mispell words when i talk so wtf does it matter.

point still stands.

if its easier to kill someone, all variables aside. a less skilled player has a better chance of taking out a more skilled player.

hence CPR = newbie friendly mod = shallow learning curve = gets boring sooner.

adapt, overcome, out think your opponent. Ive seen it a million times, tonight even. I would do a certain thing a few times, if it was effective the other team would recognize that, "ouch the left flank hurts lets defend it". they would gaurd and own me for one round. i say hey i need to switch up and do something different.

its the live chess game so to speak. you have your different pieces(rifles, sniper rifles, rockets, etc..) that all do a certain thing.

lets stick with that analogy. CPR has done the equivelent of changing every peice in MOH to the queen in chess. pawns have their place, rooks have their place. Dont mess with the game balance. adapt and overcome.

i used to get really annoyed at nade rushers. "fuck man nades need to be limited cause i hate dying early in the round". guess what, whip out a rocket and watch the nade rushers stop nade rushing. it will happen ive seen it happen many times.

but by all means, continue playing your dumbed down version of the game. I wont miss you for a second.

madrebel · 01-24-2002, 01:59 AM

siggi i mostly use rifles because i feel they are more difficult. rifles does include snipers rifles. I prefer standard rifles over all other weapons though. But will switch my tactics if my team is getting overrun.

come play siggi if you ahve the balls.

SS.SGW~Siggi · 01-24-2002, 02:09 AM

Have the BALLS??? Excuse me, BALLS for a bloody computer game? Since when have balls been required? Maybe if your peers consist of a gaggle of spotty-faced 12 year-olds hanging on the corner your game abilities might count for something...otherwise one might not give a monkey's toss.

What you are clearly failing to understand Madrebel is that if I rose to your 'challenge' it would indicate that I take you seriously. At the risk of hurting your feelings I have to inform you that I take you about as seriously as I would a Bugs Bunny cartoon. I play MoH for fun, not to try and prove to myself that I matter. I got real life accomplishments that more than adequately cover that issue.

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SSDivisionWikingSGW

madrebel · 01-24-2002, 02:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh, I get it Madrebel...how dim of me. The amazing Q3 engine...so when a client's packets totally stop departing and arriving the MoH code on the server telepathically computes where the client's model is going, registers hits and transmits those calculations back to the client who sees himself die on his screen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>no if packets stop being sent/received the 'client' freezes on his local machine and freezes in place(sometimes still running in place if that was his last action). That player CAN still be killed however because the server still registers it as a 'live' entity until that 'live entity' times out or the server receives a disconnect session packet. Do you know anything about TCP/IP? Seriously im asking so i know how far to dumb this down for you. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The server also takes over the client's moving model when no packets are arriving and computes it's course of travel for the lucky player on the server-side so that he can continue to shoot it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>no the server doesnt do this at all. what the q3 server does is track where the players is according to the data it receives from the player. if it stops receiving packets due to
A. timeout
B. packet loss

that client will appear to "freeze" and "warp" all over your screen. why? because the server "loses" track of that player. The client moves lets say in a straight line ok. the client moves 10 game feeet lets say. ok the server receives the ackets for the first 3 feet fine, something happens on the internet and one of the routers between the client and the server craps out a few packets. the server now think s hey the client has only moved 3 feet so it tells the other clients that this guy is moving in this direction and was last seen here. but wait oh look now i got the last packets and now the client is actually 7 feet in front of where he last was.

hence the "warping"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Alternatively, when packets from the client arrive late, or not at all, the model server-side stutters...no packet, freeze...gets packet, moves...called stutter. Otherwise known as a difficult target. Mmm...yes, I'm completely ignorant about lag<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>yes you are

sim games handle it differently. they dont use a client/server model. they use a peer to peer model. the biggest difference is when you click fire in peer to peer you instantly fire where as in a client server model you fire when the server receives the packet.

client/server = nothing happens without the server knowing

peer/peer = updates are sent between the peers.

both have their strengths and weaknesses.

since youre so versed on internet protocols would you care to enlighten me on the type of protocol all internet games use? and no tcp/ip isnt exactly the correct answer.

madrebel · 01-24-2002, 02:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SS.SGW~Siggi:
Have the BALLS??? Excuse me, BALLS for a bloody computer game? Since when have balls been required? Maybe if your peers consist of a gaggle of spotty-faced 12 year-olds hanging on the corner your game abilities might count for something...otherwise one might not give a monkey's toss.

What you are clearly failing to understand Madrebel is that if I rose to your 'challenge' it would indicate that I take you seriously. At the risk of hurting your feelings I have to inform you that I take you about as seriously as I would a Bugs Bunny cartoon. I play MoH for fun, not to try and prove to myself that I matter. I got real life accomplishments that more than adequately cover that issue.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
haha no you dont. you seem to think any "real world" things you have done account for something. you play games too nerd. the difference is you play them badly. oh btw, everyone plays games for fun euro trash boi.

p.s. heh dont assume im young dont assume i dont have a life.

First Man Down · 01-24-2002, 02:22 AM

Maybe I'm typing in Chinese, Siggi, cos you missed the point again. Not in it's entirety, though, I'll at least give you credit for that.

It's not needing more bullets to kill your opponent that requires more skill, it's being able to deliver more bullets without having some bloke deliver more bullets first. There's no chance to react with CPR. Captain Newbie just shot me from the otherside of the map and killed me with two shots. Only if I had my peripheral vision to alert me to his movement. Wait a minute! Is that why close-counter combat is promoted in MP games! Is that why we learn to strafe and circle! Could it be because it's a videogame and that's the only way to foster a skills curve! Am I onto something???

But what about a sniper rifle, you say? Well, if you're retarded enough to stand in one position for long enough, you deserve to get a bullet in the head and die with one shot. But many of you know that the sniper rifle is extremely hard to master (in terms of frags) and nearly impossible to use effectively at close range. Those interested in frags - and most players are - will choose to utilize a different weapon, the SMG, perhaps.

I agree with you on one thing; jumping like a madman possessed is pathetic, but the other skills you scoffed at are universally accepted as the traits of a good player. You hint at lacking these skills, so I'm going to go with my pal, madrebel, here, and assume you actually do lack these skills that are considered by the vast majority as what separates the good and the newbie, or shitty player.

First of all, sneaking up one player 'A' requires little real ability, especially since while playing a videogame, I'm unable to hear an opponent come from behind, or take advantage of my peripheral vision - all the tools needed to give player 'B' and opportunity to respond to his attacker - just like in real life. Can you incoporate that into your sacred realism mod?

Now, if you sneak up on player 'B' and are unable to kill him, but (and here's the kicker) he is able to turn around, avoid your attack, and then drop your sorry ass - well, you've been "owned."

So, if I'm correct, your desire for CPR stems not from realism, but from your frustration with being unable to manipulate a keyboard and mouse in such a manner than enables you to be competitive. So, in essence, CPR allows you to win, which you like, but regular play doesn't allow you to win, which you don't like.

OK, I get it now.

By the way, I've never even tried a Quake game.

[This message has been edited by First Man Down (edited January 24, 2002).]

Lord Bailey · 01-24-2002, 02:52 AM

The more of this stuff that I read, the more I realize that there are a whole shit load of whiners out there; interrupted occasionally by a few decent people. Come on guys, just play the game and get better at it. Don't get pissed because there are people out there who are better, faster, and smarter than you, and then come in here and post pissy replies to a bad experience. Sheesh, practice makes perfect.

SS.SGW~Siggi · 01-24-2002, 02:54 AM

"that client will appear to "freeze" and "warp" all over your screen. why? because the server "loses" track of that player. The client moves lets say in a straight line ok. the client moves 10 game feeet lets say. ok the server receives the ackets for the first 3 feet fine, something happens on the internet and one of the routers between the client and the server craps out a few packets. the server now think s hey the client has only moved 3 feet so it tells the other clients that this guy is moving in this direction and was last seen here. but wait oh look now i got the last packets and now the client is actually 7 feet in front of where he last was."

Well...finally out of your own mouth so to speak. The client lags, making it hard for the server-side player to hit him, as I experienced yesterday. Er...so what are you arguing about? Trying to sneakily alter your position on the subject? Lol. Like I said...lag affects BOTH client and server. Nice to see you finally admit it, even if in such an obliviously ironic manner.

"Play them badly." Now here is the big give-away to your state of mind. You state that I play badly, without having any possible idea of how I actually play. Classic school-yard hyperbole. Do you have NO idea how you make yourself sound with that lame kind of crap? No, obviously not or you wouldn't do it. Here's a heads-up for you...you sound like a pre-adolescent dick.

Protocols...generally TCP/IP over the internet, IPX/SPX over LAN. Or how about NetBEUI or SIP??? Lol. I see you are eager to add pedantry to your list of failings. Like I give a shite about protocols so long as my games work properly across internet/LAN...and they do, cos I know enough about the nuts and bolts to ensure it.

Hey...these posts are like non-CPR...you keep taking rounds but you refuse to die. Lol. Bugger off and come back when you know how to shoot with something better than blanks.

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SSDivisionWikingSGW

madrebel · 01-24-2002, 03:03 AM

like i said you know nothing about what youre talking about. tcp/ip isnt the correct answer. no amount of "buzzwords" will save you here wanker.

lol ipx/spx over the lan youre funny. very few people actually run ipx/spx anymore. its a dated, noisy, slow protocol.

netbui isnt a transmission protocol either ace.

and no i am not changing my stance.

if you are the server and have a 0 ping you have a massive advantage over everyone else.

nothing happens unless the server says so.

meaning i you are the server, you hit fire you fire right then and there.

also the warping is caused by your dumb ass playing and trying too act as the server at the same time.

come play on my server mr. pro CPR man.

chicken shit.

your technical expertise is so far below mine i would have to have my frontal lobe removed to dumb it down low enough for you.

First Man Down · 01-24-2002, 03:09 AM

Siggi,

I'll take the absense of a repsonse as an indication that I was right. But if you have to sit there and imagine something up, please, by all means take the time. I'll be more than happy to respond once you've composed a rebuttle. And leave the childish dialogue out of it. I'm interested in substance, mate.