[Colonel]

Originally Posted by Zen

And the thing that bothers me the most... the single most troubling event is the fact that as a world leader, a country of freedom we invaded another country and removed its leader without UN / NATO consent.

Well thought out post Zen. Nice job. We invaded Europe two years after Japan, partly because we had to build up our military power which had not only been hurt by the Japanese attack (it had also been allowed to decline after WWI) but also because FDR had to convince America that Europe was also our fight. Even back then there were anti0war people saying it was not our problem. It is also reasonable to say that Vietnam and Korea were "defensive" in that our "allies" were under attack. But America itself was never in any real danger. (unless you believe the Domino Theory) However, (and only history can judge whether we were right or not) in the case of Iraq, I believe it is safe to assume that we were in real danger. We had already been attacked. Intelligence reports (although the future may find that they were not accurate - hindsight is always 20/20 - but we can only judge the decisions made by the information that they had at the moment of decision) showed that Iraq was in some way aiding the people that attacked us, and Saddam had a history of surprise attacks...just ask the Kuwaitees. Even President Clinton thought that intelligence reports that President Bush had were accurate.

BTW - it is my recollection that we went to Croatia to prevent the continued genocide. Why then isn't that enough reason in Iraq? Could it be because Iraq was more profitable to a few of the UN members than Croatia? I have no problem going in without UN approval. How can the UN make a decision about going through with their ultimatum to Saddam when guys like Germany and France are making a killing selling him stuff? They point the finger of blame at the US and yet they were selling Saddam the very stuff that made him feel he could defy the UN. Shame on them.

But like I said, the war itself is not the point of the thread. The point is that we have lost less men than in just about any war in history and yet to hear people talk you would think that every day is another D-day or Sharpsburg.

[Drew]

The problem is that this is the first war since the explosion of the internet. It is also the first war where reporters from several news agencies reported from the front lines.

We live in an age of unprecedented media coverage of everything. The things happening in Iraq are not new, they have happened in every other war America has ever fought. Not only that, in every other war these things have occurred in greater numbers.

I can't remember who it was, but a general in the early 1900s (referencing newspapers) said that the growing press would be the downfall of our society, harnessing the ability to warp and distort the events taking place around the world, the average citizen never even noticing it happening.

He has no clue how right he was. There is a clear parallel between the increasing media coverage of everything and the growing divide in our country.

[Zen]

Originally Posted by Colonel

But like I said, the war itself is not the point of the thread. The point is that we have lost less men than in just about any war in history and yet to hear people talk you would think that every day is another D-day or Sharpsburg.

Right, just commenting on the propagada there.

And you are right, the cost in human life for the capture and occupation of a country as rampant and un-ballanced as Iraq...the center point of the middle east, I might add is surprizingly low.

But the priorities of the administration are obvious. The sudan has been suffering hundreds of thousands of fatalities for years under more violent and sinister methods yet our government sees no need to attempt to rectify that situation. Perhaps if they had more oil wells....

I'm obviously not one to say which countries we should invade for thier own good, but it does make me nerveous to think that our government feels it can do whatever it deems globally nessecary without global concent.

Just my input.

Edit: Damn good point Noct.

[Colonel]

Originally Posted by Zen

but it does make me nerveous to think that our government feels it can do whatever it deems globally nessecary without global concent.
.

Yep. It would be nice to global consent for everything....but right now the world hates us so much (I think even before Bush came along) that they wouldn't even consent to allow us to defend ourselves if the Chinese were landing boats on our beaches!...uh...wait sec...the Chinese are landing boats on our beaches!...and...OMG!! ...their unloading .... oh no!!..what is that I see?....OMG!! their unloading cheap consumer goods, chemicals, steel....OMG!!! We're doomed!! ed: ed:

[Coleman]

Originally Posted by Colonel

Yep. It would be nice to global consent for everything....but right now the world hates us so much (I think even before Bush came along) that they wouldn't even consent to allow us to defend ourselves if the Chinese were landing boats on our beaches!...uh...wait sec...the Chinese are landing boats on our beaches!...and...OMG!! ...their unloading .... oh no!!..what is that I see?....OMG!! their unloading cheap consumer goods, chemicals, steel....OMG!!! We're doomed!! ed: ed:

lol happy:

[Fireal]

Originally Posted by Coleman

this is why talking politics on a gaming forum will never work. you have immature idiots that just insult with curse words when they have nothing to say. Colonel was doing everything in a respectable manner. Fireal, why the hell would you start this crap?

Can a mod delete those posts?

haha, you thought politics would work on a GAMING forum? Jesus fuck, it's so lame.

OMFG KERRY DID THIS HE SAID THIS AND THEN HE SIAD NO! WTF IS THAT?

The fact of the matter is, FDR didnt go into war based on false information. Bush Did.
Bush is a fucking moron who has fucked the economy up soo bad its not even funny. And kerry is just as bad.

Now zen, please die.

[Drew]

Originally Posted by Fireal

Bush is a fucking moron who has fucked the economy up soo bad its not even funny.

Please. Educate. Yourself.

He inherited a six-month old recession, dealt with the tech crash, the bursting of the Dot Com bubble, the fallout from NAFTA and the worst terror attack on the country since Pearl Harbor and subsequently the worst stock market crash since the Great Depression (which alone cost 1 million jobs over a period of three months).

Despite that, Alan Greenspan and the Bush Administration have managed to see the GDP increase every year, the average household income increase, the percentage of home ownership increase, control inflation, keep the CPI following the same track it has for the past decade, create 1.8 million jobs in a single year and provide tax cuts to all Americans.

Considering the obvious increase in Homeland Security as well as the war in Iraq, he has done all this with a defecit that is not unreasonable and could be corrected within another 4-year term (unlike some presidents, I would hope that Bush won't gut the military, intelligence community and a dozen government aid programs in order to leave the next president with a surplus that only exists through creative accounting. Talk about sabotage.).

And the very, very best part of the whole thing. Kerry tries to blast Bush on feduciary responsibility, meanwhile he has proposed to spend over one trillion more dollars than Bush during his term. And he is apparently going to pay for all of it with a couple of hundred million that would result from the repealing of the portion of the tax cut received by the wealthiest 20% of America. That's right, he'll raise taxes all the way down into the middle/upper middle-class. Think it's going to stop there? Yeah right.

We'll have a defecit with Bush and we'd have one with Kerry. Personally, considering every other developed nation in the world operates with a national debt and quite often with a defecit, I'll follow suit and enjoy a more vibrant domestic economy rather than watch us lose jobs because of a tax hike or because some numbnut pushed minimum wage up over $7.00 (which is way off percentage-wise).

If you have legitimate questions, ask away.

[Mr.Buttocks]

[url=http://www.undergroundarchives.net/download/time_for_politics.mpg:f4bb8]Bush shits his pants[/url:f4bb8]

[Sgt>Stackem]

good post Colonel, Im going to use this. I found it very intresting.




as for this moron, I would say this is your average Kerry supporter. A FUCKING MORON! Anyone that is going to vote do not pay attention to political commericals for either side they are a joke. You come off looking like this fool, filled with half facts.

Originally Posted by Fireal

OMFG KERRY DID THIS HE SAID THIS AND THEN HE SIAD NO! WTF IS THAT?

The fact of the matter is, FDR didnt go into war based on false information. Bush Did.
Bush is a fucking moron who has fucked the economy up soo bad its not even funny. And kerry is just as bad.

Now zen, please die.

[guarnere]

James, have you lost your freaking mind dude? oOo: