Do you have faith in mankind? - Page 3

09-12-2003, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noctis

Given the fact that the United States military was founded for the sole purpose of the pursuit of liberty and freedom, I thought that just maybe you'd be able to infer that that ideal would hold true and be generally accepted by the enlistees intelligent enough to do the same. But then that's the definition of a liberal, isn't it? They want to find something wrong with everything so they can bitch about something. Liberals are the same reason that school districts are shelling out MILLIONS of dollars in LAW SUITS propegated by liberal institutes like the ACLU because they didn't offer an appropriate selection of meat alternatives. GG.

who says I'm a liberal?
you make too many generalizations.
I also hate groups like the ACLU and the Green movement with a vengeance. I also believe that the Feds should stay the fuck out of our everyday affairs and that we should take responsibility for our own fuckups.
I am actually more social center, economic center-left

While we are on the subject of defeding freedom: what about the "patriot" act? That single document has the potential of doing more damage to our freedoms than anything ever passed in congress.
Did you know that the Feds can bascially spy on all of your activities without a warrant?

I used to respect conservatives becasue they believed in smaller Federal government which protects freedoms instead of violating them, it looks like things have changed.

I also used to be fiercly pro-war with regard to ousting Saddam, but after the "WMD" snowjob and the obvious lack of post-war reconstruction planning I have become fiercly anti-war. It takes a truly great politician to make people who were on his side become against him

hake:

Dr. Deleto · 09-12-2003, 01:22 PM

[quote="Sgt Stryker":34dd2]The war against the Taliban was 100% justified,
what was the reason Bush gave for going into Iraq?
phantom WMDs?
even the "Saddam is an evil dictator" reason is a better one that the official reason.

I hate Saddam as much as the next guy, but because Iraqis are being opressed doesn't make it right to send in US soldiers and trade US lives for Iraqi lives.
the US military exists to protect the security of Americans, therefore exterminating the Taliban to the last raghead was a good idea, because they posed a threat.
[/quote:34dd2]

Us interests....hm....Israel comes to mind. Right in that general area and the target of countless attacks both physical and non physical, by Sadam's regime. Also, lets think about the other big reason behind the Iraq campaign. OIL! I personally use it myself, now I don't know if you have an electric car or just ride a bike, but I do know that a lot of the US' oil comes out of that region (some from Iraq itself.) So now, instead of having to pay a "Sadam Tax on ever barrel from Iraq, we will have little or no taxes added on, since the new power will most likely be put into place by us.

Saying that we have no interests or justification in that war is the same as saying we shouldnt have helped France or England in world war 2. What exactly was Germany doing to Englan at the time on our intervention anyways? shooting missles at them and bombing them? sounds awfully familiar to the "Accidents" that Sadam ordered against Israel. Sure we know now that Germany was planning to invade England, but how do we know that sadam didnt have that same thing in mind for some of our allies in that region? We know for a fact he was building an army out of weapons that we told him he couldnt have after desert storm. His defiance of the rules we layed out was enough for me, but the other facts are strong in themselves.

Lets face it, Sadam was an asshat that deserved what he got, and in actuality, if you really want to compare death ratios, then the numbers in Iraq, had they been back in the US, would have had twice as many die in car wrecks, shootings, etc. I have a friend who has just recently returned from Iraq. He was assigned to the 101st airborne, then the marines (he's a 12bravo with the army) and he told me that most of the time he felt safer there than he does everyday at home.

ED! · 09-12-2003, 01:58 PM

I sincerely hate this running idea, that because it happens somewhere else, we shouldnt get involved. That is bullshit, and further leads to the destabilization of civilization. I wonder how many JEWS would have told British, Russian, and American troops - "look, we can handle it, just stay on your own continent".

Its nice that you are in a position where youre able to shake your finger at the "war mongerers", but better they do what you and other soft-heads seem unwilling to do, then let tyranny and genocide run rampant. Is it about oil - HELL FUCKING YEA! You really want an extremely LIMITED resource in the hands of folks who are so sure in the religious right that theyre willing to kill people for it? Yea - good fooking plan.

Dr. Deleto · 09-12-2003, 02:02 PM

[quote="ED!":2f2f0]Is it about oil - HELL FUCKING YEA! You really want an extremely LIMITED resource in the hands of folks who are so sure in the religious right that theyre willing to kill people for it? .[/quote:2f2f0]

My point exactly. One of many.

09-12-2003, 02:41 PM

[quote="ED!":9d17e]I sincerely hate this running idea, that because it happens somewhere else, we shouldnt get involved. That is bullshit, and further leads to the destabilization of civilization. I wonder how many JEWS would have told British, Russian, and American troops - "look, we can handle it, just stay on your own continent".

Its nice that you are in a position where youre able to shake your finger at the "war mongerers", but better they do what you and other soft-heads seem unwilling to do, then let tyranny and genocide run rampant. Is it about oil - HELL FUCKING YEA! You really want an extremely LIMITED resource in the hands of folks who are so sure in the religious right that theyre willing to kill people for it? Yea - good fooking plan.[/quote:9d17e]

but the point is the Bush administration gets angry at anyone who even remotely suggests that it's about oil. What kind of a Republican are you doubting the word of president Bush, shame on you. (not my rhetoric, I saw conservatives attack someone for even suggesting it was about oil on another board)
If they just outright said that oil is one of the primary reasons, I would show more support for this war, but instead they chose the WMD plan, now they cannot find any.

ED! · 09-12-2003, 02:49 PM

It AINT primarily about oil. That is an added benefit of removing a despot. Or do you REALLY believe the people are better of with Saddam in power?

09-12-2003, 02:52 PM

[quote="Dr. Deleto":72963][quote="Sgt Stryker":72963]The war against the Taliban was 100% justified,
what was the reason Bush gave for going into Iraq?
phantom WMDs?
even the "Saddam is an evil dictator" reason is a better one that the official reason.

I hate Saddam as much as the next guy, but because Iraqis are being opressed doesn't make it right to send in US soldiers and trade US lives for Iraqi lives.
the US military exists to protect the security of Americans, therefore exterminating the Taliban to the last raghead was a good idea, because they posed a threat.
[/quote:72963]

Us interests....hm....Israel comes to mind. Right in that general area and the target of countless attacks both physical and non physical, by Sadam's regime. Also, lets think about the other big reason behind the Iraq campaign. OIL! I personally use it myself, now I don't know if you have an electric car or just ride a bike, but I do know that a lot of the US' oil comes out of that region (some from Iraq itself.) So now, instead of having to pay a "Sadam Tax on ever barrel from Iraq, we will have little or no taxes added on, since the new power will most likely be put into place by us.

Saying that we have no interests or justification in that war is the same as saying we shouldnt have helped France or England in world war 2. What exactly was Germany doing to Englan at the time on our intervention anyways? shooting missles at them and bombing them? sounds awfully familiar to the "Accidents" that Sadam ordered against Israel. Sure we know now that Germany was planning to invade England, but how do we know that sadam didnt have that same thing in mind for some of our allies in that region? We know for a fact he was building an army out of weapons that we told him he couldnt have after desert storm. His defiance of the rules we layed out was enough for me, but the other facts are strong in themselves.

Lets face it, Sadam was an asshat that deserved what he got, and in actuality, if you really want to compare death ratios, then the numbers in Iraq, had they been back in the US, would have had twice as many die in car wrecks, shootings, etc. I have a friend who has just recently returned from Iraq. He was assigned to the 101st airborne, then the marines (he's a 12bravo with the army) and he told me that most of the time he felt safer there than he does everyday at home.[/quote:72963]

I honestly believe Israel could take Iraq on their own easily.
Their air force is better trained than our own.
In the 80s when they needed to blow up an Iraqi nuclear reactor they did it with 2 F-16s flying under the radar.
The US needed a mass attack by stealth fighters (F-117) to kill Iraq's SAMs first. Also Iraq's military is such a shambles we didn't even do a preliminary bombardment like last time before the ground war.

How can you compare Germany and Iraq?
Did Saddam have a plan for Iraqi superiority over other races?
Is Iraq anywhere near the industrial powerhouse that Germany always was?
Remember that the treaty of Versailles only knocked Germany down, not out, they still had very much intact industry (mostly idle before Hitler came) and they had some of the most brilliant minds of our time (Von Braun for example). (some of whom fled the country like Einstein)

What am I supposed to think when I see a regular lab centrifuge on TV and they tell me Saddam was using THAT to build nukes. (any idiot knows you need a gas centrifuge to separate UF6 (the UF6 with U-238 is heavier))

Like I said before I would be 100% for the war if it was not for the way Bush and company made up total bullshit to try and convince us.

MrLevinstein · 09-12-2003, 03:42 PM

[quote=Noctis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by "Low spark":0b251

Noctis you are nothing but a jerk. I't people like you that with shallow hate filled minds that make this world the mess it is today.

Hey, don't hate me just because I happen to have an IQ in the top one percentile of the nation. I can't help that I'm smart, I just fucking hate idiots. Smart people don't fuck things up, idiots do. Usually idiots disguised as smart people. Oh, and liberals are all idealistic idiots. Thank you, come again.[/quote:0b251]

I hope you have a BMW that way your penis enlargement by way of braggery would be complete. Look at me everyone I may be a self centered asshole who uses his IQ as means to solve every question thats answered by way of my arrogance but hell I can sure get a good looking girlfriend. Being smart is just like being rich, the more money you have the more people tell you youre rich so your ego grows and soon "Look at me who the fuck needs god"

Out of the way of making fun of noctural battered-anus:

Man kind is doing its "hardest" to make sure that countries that could potentially threaten the world are not aloud to develope or maintain any Nuclear weapons programs. But ofcourse the bigger more responsible countries like USA, and Russia are allowed to develope any type of program they see fit. Do away with nukes and chem warfare as well as crazy dictators and the prospect of war will slowly minimize.

Low spark · 09-12-2003, 03:50 PM

To get back on topic.

After seeing the way this thread de-evolved. I would have to change my stance, there is no hope for mankind. So for those of you that have childern I suggest explaining to them that their lifes are worthless, what is important is the profit that can be made today at their expense. If they happen make to aldulthood, all they have to look foward to is an environmently wasted planet, and an insurmountable debt brought to them by my generation. But what the hell. they deserve it, after all we are making the world safe from terrorism by giving the rest of the world all the more reasons to hate us. We break or ignore treaty after treaty, we do everything we can to dismantle or get around environmental laws. We have religons that are doing nothing to make it a better world, but instead causing more hate in the world, acting like childern "MY RELIGON IS BETTER THAN YOURS, YOU HEATHEN, SO DIE".
Too easily we justify the killing of the innocent and not so innocent people,
The sacntity of human life has little or no meaning......

THERE IS NO HOPE!!!!!

I think I'll go buy a Humvee.

MrLevinstein · 09-12-2003, 03:56 PM

[quote="Low spark":2a024]"MY RELIGON IS BETTER THAN YOURS, YOU HEATHEN, SO DIE". [/quote:2a024]

Primary reason wars, and such have been started since pretty much the formation of civilization

ED! · 09-12-2003, 04:23 PM

I regards to the WMD error - it has been admitted and moved on. There is no "oh we're still looking for WMD's". Bush has said the removal is justified even if there are no WMD's. It's like everything is taken to this LITERAL extreme and if anything deviates then that's Bush's ass.

I dont think so Low. Our generation - much more mellow. We dont have the same level of assholes that yours produced no offence. We will still have a hill to climb and its kinda scary thinking we'll be the ones in charge someday, but I think we're readily able to admit our mistakes than past generations.

Low spark · 09-12-2003, 04:47 PM

[quote="ED!":12f08]I
I dont think so Low. Our generation - much more mellow. We dont have the same level of assholes that yours produced no offence. We will still have a hill to climb and its kinda scary thinking we'll be the ones in charge someday, but I think we're readily able to admit our mistakes than past generations.[/quote:12f08]

Funny, when I was younger I might of said the samething like that to some one in my father's generation.
Admitting mistakes is one thing fixing them is another, and we are creating plenty of mistake to be fixed.

No offence can be taken, I look at the people we allow to run the world today and feel gulity, because the damage they are doing is going to effect your generation more than it will effect mine.

T.Hunter · 09-12-2003, 05:56 PM

we as mankind are doomed. and i believe it. its just a matter of time before some freak ass aliens blow earth to shit.

my predictions according to my 99 cent tarot cards from k-mart:

technology will gradually increase.

space travel will become a reality

california will become the smog pit of the world.

then some idiot is going to get his hands on a nuke and blow another country to shit.

life in other galaxies/planets will be found.

then again, i wont care what happens because ill be dead.

time. its all a matter of time.

09-12-2003, 06:02 PM

[quote="ED!":e4d1d]It AINT primarily about oil. That is an added benefit of removing a despot. Or do you REALLY believe the people are better of with Saddam in power?[/quote:e4d1d]

damn physics test, lol

Actually I think Iraqis will be better off now (or will be when we rebuild), at least I am hoping for the best and that no more people (our or theirs) get killed.

I guess you do have a heart, I retract the mindless warmonger statement.
I was referring to the kind that will follow President Bush anywhere just because he's a Republican (yes I have seen a few people like this) They're the ones who don't really care about the humanitarian issue but believe the WMD line 100%.

As far as how the war went, I would really have preferred if Bush did use the human rights violations, not WMDs to present his case to the UN. Russia and Germany would most likely be more willing (since they were basically looking at the WMD argument going "he's full of shit") and we could shut France up by digging up info on how they sold Saddam a nuclear reactor (the same one Israel destroyed).
the benefits would be we would have more troops for peacekeeping, a better plan for restoring Iraq, and we (US taxpayers) don't have to pay the full sum.
The only bad effect would be Saddam would be in power for a couple more months while the coalition planned.

Bean 2 · 09-12-2003, 06:07 PM

[quote=Noctis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by "Low spark":85c11

Noctis you are nothing but a jerk. I't people like you that with shallow hate filled minds that make this world the mess it is today.

Hey, don't hate me just because I happen to have an IQ in the top one percentile of the nation. I can't help that I'm smart, I just fucking hate idiots. Smart people don't fuck things up, idiots do. Usually idiots disguised as smart people. Oh, and liberals are all idealistic idiots. Thank you, come again.[/quote:85c11]

Smart people dont fuck things up? Tell that to NASA.