[gtboys34]

ha, u say that now. Dude, be freakin serious for once in ure "life". Hell is a horrible place and NOONE here on earth no matter how much they say their not scared of the devil and fire etc, dont wanna go at all. Try this: next time u get burned or something try and keep whatever body part on whatever it is ure getting burned by.....well, hell would be 1000000 times worst than that feeling. Btw Innoxx, u wouldnt be able to shove a pineapple up his butt b/c the freakin thing would discenegrate b4 u could even pick it up. Maybe i should post the "enviroments" of hell in here b/c obviously some of us dont take it seriously enough mwah:

[Ydiss]

Originally Posted by Vance1

Let's just say he was really screwed up. Getting drunk almost every other day and going out and almost killing himself in a car accident. He was just really messed up and he needed help so he turned to Christ.....in turn, Christ changed his life around and now he is our youth minister. I am sure I am missing alot of things on his life but that's the jist. May I ask how your life became bad?

There is ultimately nothing wrong with this. It's nice to see somone who originally did bad things change their ways and put the credit in Jesus.

But, you can do all of the above without needing to be a born again Christian (or whatever faith it may be).

Each and every one of us is entirely responsible for our actions and, perhaps with the help of familly, or friends, or even complete strangers, anything is acheivable if you put your mind to it.

I have changed my life around before, from smoking tons of pot every day with "friends" who didn't give a shit about me. From losing my job because I stole property. From having no job and debts up to my eyeballs.

With help from my mum, but ultimately from my own hard work, I now have my own place which I share with my beautiful girlfriend, who is carrying our baby. I have a very well paid job with a huge multinational company (Europe's largest energy supplier no less) and I am content.

I did all that myself, with a little help, and I did it without the help of Jesus.

Now, if someone was to come to me and say "You were blessed by God and, through Jesus, you were saved" I would take it as a grave insult.

I did it. Not God.

I think religion can be a wonderful thing and it obviously brings a lot of people happiness.

But that is where it ends. Everything else is down to the person and their actions/intentions.

The worst kind of religion is where (and I point this at no particular religion or person or nation) religion is the excuse used by people for the horrible things they do or the depravation they inflict on others.

Originally Posted by Vance1

I pity the non-beileves of this board because they miss the major things that Christianity has changed -

- You see, the non-beilever/Atheist group goes like this: You are born, your life is crap, you die. The end. WOAH! That's REALLY COMPLICATED!

I bet you could take two people, Athiest and a Christian, both in weelchairs and both have some kind of disability. You ask wich of the two is a happier person, and I'll bet it's the Christian over the Athiest anyday.

That is insulting. The last paragraph is absolute rubbish.

Don't pity me because I do not have a faith. This is another aspect of religion that riles me no end. You are not better off because you believe in God. You have absolutely no idea how I feel because I do not believe in God, so I don't require any pity from you or any other person.

I doubt that if God truly existed that he would be happy that you made such statements.

[Innoxx]

Lol, have you been to this place?

All I hear about this place is church talk and you know how reliable that can be.

[Ydiss]

Originally Posted by Tiwaz

We are still ignorant of many forces and realities. Thinking we are not is being naïve. Wo do not know all. I personally believe we're not even close. I also believe the human mind is capable of so much more than we know of at this time. We will evolve further. Too bad I will not be around the next 100,000,000 years. Maybe we (mankind) will not even survive that long.

I have never been under the impression that we know all and, as such, there is proof that God does not exist.

Of course we don't know everything and it's obvious that we do not use our brains to the full capacity but until we do and I see evidence of that then I will use what knowledge I do have to draw my own conclusions.

I have more knowledge of how humans work than the average person who was alive 2000 years ago, that was my point. In that case I am more subject to question the reality of religion.

My conclusion, and mine alone, is that science shows me more about the way my body and mind work and develop than religion. We evolved. We were not created as if from clay and placed on this planet, whole humans. Science tells me that and it makes a lot more sense to me than any religious theories.

I don't completely discount the idea that there is a higher conscience, either within our own minds or in some ethereal plane, but until I see it for myself then I don't see the point to bothering myself with it.

Originally Posted by Tiwaz

Why generalize religion? Surely you are being sarcastic about the robe and beard, that's what they tell children.

Lol, yes of course I was.


[quote:b409a] But if didn't exist, how could it become something? [/quote:b409a] The universe is a great unknown. That nothing could be created from nothing is the great mystery. Discussing that and religion is futile, nothing can prove nor discprove anything if you know nothing of it to start with.

[quote:b409a]
Things like this are the reason for the existence of religion. A zillion years ago it was because we did not understand what a thunderstorm was all about [/quote:b409a]

That is exactly what I meant!

Religion was created to answer questions about unknown phenomena.

Humans did not know what caused death, pain, anger, happiness, lust, rain, trees, sunshine, snow and everything else that they encountered daily.

[quote:b409a](and even nowadays we can not completely comprehend and predict the nature of a thunderstorm)[/quote:b409a] But we do know a lot more than people did 2000 years ago, don't we?

We have many more answers than they did. We understand how things work a lot more.

Religion is formed from awe.

If you do not understand how something works, why it happens or how to control it you will be in awe of it. You may even fear it.

The more you know about something, the less it awes you. If you can control it then you will fear it less.

If you could possibly take a huge TV back to before Christ and play a music video in front of thousands of people then there is every chance that they would believe they were seeing a God. They might even worship it, write about it and tell stories about it.

To them there is no way to explain it so they will find ways to explain it to themselves. They would have every right to believe in it... After-all they don't know any better, do they? And thousands of years later that would hold true.

If it gives happiness then good.

[quote:b409a]And, okay then, we're back to the basis of religion: Faith. Whether you like it or not: Everybody is a believer. Either you believe in a God/higher being/etc. or you don't believe. A disbeliever? No. You're not sure are you?[/quote:b409a] I am totally sure what I believe in.


I believe in happiness, sharing and my familly. I believe in love, doing my best and having fun.

I believe in a lot of things.

I try my best to live a good life, to help and support others. I try to have fun. I try to make a difference in my life.

I, and any other person in this world, can do all of that without even being told what God and religion is.

Being a good person is not dependant on being religious. Most Agnostics and Atheists understand that.

Religious people tend not to.

And when I die?

I will hope that I will live on in the hearts and memories of my familly and friends. If that happens, and I am sure it will, then I will die a happy man.

Originally Posted by Innoxx

Lol, have you been to this place?

All I hear about this place is church talk and you know how reliable that can be.

a co-worker of my dad had a church brochure that said to vote for Dole in '96 because Clinton would not balance the budget and would bring the country deeper into defecit, which happens to be what Bush is doing now and Clinton never did oOo:

[Vance]

You see Ydiss, Christianity is different from any other religion because there was actually a guy that came here....and this dude's name was Jesus.....and he did alot of cool stuff like raise people from he dead and then he died but then he himself rose from the dead and then he went back to Heaven. There is no other religion that comes close to that.

[Ydiss]

Originally Posted by Vance1

You see Ydiss, Christianity is different from any other religion because there was actually a guy that came here....and this dude's name was Jesus.....and he did alot of cool stuff like raise people from he dead and then he died but then he himself rose from the dead and then he went back to Heaven. There is no other religion that comes close to that.

Originally Posted by Ydiss

If you could possibly take a huge TV back to before Christ and play a music video in front of thousands of people then there is every chance that they would believe they were seeing a God. They might even worship it, write about it and tell stories about it.

To them there is no way to explain it so they will find ways to explain it to themselves. They would have every right to believe in it... After-all they don't know any better, do they? And thousands of years later that would hold true.

If it gives happiness then good.

[Ydiss]

I find it funny that God is told to have created everything, but he chose us to reveal himself to humans by sending a human to do his work.

Not a rabbit, a squirrel, or an ant, but a human.

We must be quite special. Of all of the billions of species out there, known and unknown, we are the ones he happens to be modelled after.

Many reasons to believe, many reasons why not to.

Did God create us, or did we create God?

The universe is a huge and massively unknown entity - We are not that important a factor to it.

We will pass and die away long before even our planet does most likely. And when we are extinct, like dinosaurs, life will carry on quite well without us.

[Ydiss]

Sorry for the spam (I'd use the edit key in a second if I could), but I am not trying to prove to Christians that God does not exist. Equally I do not think Christians should try to convince others that he does.

But, religious people do exactly that, day after day after day.

It should be up to the individual to make up their mind. It would be nice if it was left at that.

I was given that option. And I firmly believe that is how it should be.

[pest]

Originally Posted by Ydiss

Sorry for the spam (I'd use the edit key in a second if I could), but I am not trying to prove to Christians that God does not exist. Equally I do not think Christians should try to convince others that he does.

But, religious people do exactly that, day after day after day.

Actually I hear what beer or toothpaste to use day after day. I rarely hear what religion to believe or not to believe.

We may know more than we did 2000 years ago, but we arent any smarter. Science can tell us that we werent always this way, it can tell us how our heart funcitons and how our muscles work, but it cant tell us where the beginning was. It cant take us to the garden of eden anymore than it can take us to the big bang. Actually, it probably has a better chance at taking us to the garden of eden.

[pest]

[quote="Sgt Stryker":7e12c]
I don't think I would like heaven one bit, I mean no problems to solve, no challenges to overcome, no need to better myself or my lifestyle, in short booooorrrrriiiiiiing, an eternity of bl;issful boredom oOo:[/quote:7e12c]

And you have this insight into what heaven is like from where.......???

Bugs bunny?

I am not telling you what to believe, but I would recommend you not repeat that too many places. I dont know what heaven is either, but I would bet its not sitting on clouds with a harp.

[Tiwaz]

Originally Posted by Ydiss

The universe is a great unknown. That nothing could be created from nothing is the great mystery. Discussing that and religion is futile, nothing can prove nor discprove anything if you know nothing of it to start with.

I was not trying to start a discussion about the universe, I was trying to make an analogy: On the one hand the universe (definition: everything, everything that we know of) and the thing the universe expands into ('nothing', unknown), on the other hand science (the explained things, things that have been proven correct) and God (not proven, unexplained). I chose this analogy with the universe to make it clear that the human mind does not know all, thus giving reason to a religion. What I was trying to make clear is that although some things have not been proven or seen, it does not mean that those things are nonexistent. They simply are not part of our 'universe' yet (people who want to use this argument to validate them thinking we are all living in the Matrix are allowed to, biggrin: )

Things like this are the reason for the existence of religion. A zillion years ago it was because we did not understand what a thunderstorm was all about[quote:3fb54]That is exactly what I meant!

Religion was created to answer questions about unknown phenomena.

Humans did not know what caused death, pain, anger, happiness, lust, rain, trees, sunshine, snow and everything else that they encountered daily.[/quote:3fb54]Yes, this is true. I agree (obviously). Does not mean that God/a higher being does not exist. But then again, that's not really the purpose of this discussion is it. It is merely an exchange of opinions.

and even nowadays we can not completely comprehend and predict the nature of a thunderstorm[quote:3fb54]But we do know a lot more than people did 2000 years ago, don't we?

We have many more answers than they did. We understand how things work a lot more.

Religion is formed from awe.

If you do not understand how something works, why it happens or how to control it you will be in awe of it. You may even fear it.

The more you know about something, the less it awes you. If you can control it then you will fear it less.

If you could possibly take a huge TV back to before Christ and play a music video in front of thousands of people then there is every chance that they would believe they were seeing a God. They might even worship it, write about it and tell stories about it.

To them there is no way to explain it so they will find ways to explain it to themselves. They would have every right to believe in it... After-all they don't know any better, do they? And thousands of years later that would hold true.[/quote:3fb54]Nice example, I often use something similar when discussing religion with people. Because things that are possible now, were possible back then, even though they had not been invented or discovered yet.

And, okay then, we're back to the basis of religion: Faith. Whether you like it or not: Everybody is a believer. Either you believe in a God/higher being/etc. or you don't believe. A disbeliever? No. You're not sure are you?[quote:3fb54]I am totally sure what I believe in.

I believe in happiness, sharing and my familly. I believe in love, doing my best and having fun.

I believe in a lot of things.

I try my best to live a good life, to help and support others. I try to have fun. I try to make a difference in my life.

I, and any other person in this world, can do all of that without even being told what God and religion is.

Being a good person is not dependant on being religious. Most Agnostics and Atheists understand that.

Religious people tend not to.

And when I die?

I will hope that I will live on in the hearts and memories of my familly and friends. If that happens, and I am sure it will, then I will die a happy man.[/quote:3fb54]It's nice that you are sure of what you do and do not believe in. I am not that sure. I am quite sure a higher being (God) exists, but absolutely sure? Not really. Not 100% (people who are 100% sure that God exists will probably say I will go straight to hell for not being totally sure. But because of my scientific background, having no proof, I can't be 100% sure. I can not rule out the possibility that God does not exist. Yet. Maybe when I reach 40. Given my scientific background, it would probably be easier to be a non-believer.[quote:3fb54]I am not trying to prove to Christians that God does not exist. Equally I do not think Christians should try to convince others that he does.

But, religious people do exactly that, day after day after day.

It should be up to the individual to make up their mind. It would be nice if it was left at that.

I was given that option. And I firmly believe that is how it should be.[/quote:3fb54]Christians try to convince other people because they want other people to go to heaven as well, and to let them experience that what they have found in their religion. They are allowed to, as far as I am concerned. We can discuss, and because of some discussions some people will choose God, some will choose not to believe. But at least we can learn to understand eachother. Or try to. We should not fight over it. Convincing everybody of something like religion or type of religion will never happen.

Indeed, it should be up to the individual. I wish more people understood that. Days of heresy are behind us. At least in most Western countries. The sooner everybody admits that one man can and should not always try impose his religion or opinion to another, the better.

[SoLiDUS]

Concerning some replies I got from page 4...

I'm not an atheist and I am not religious: I'm spiritual. I *do* believe in a
creational force as the first cause behind the nature of existence... but that
is about as far as it goes: the rest of my "beliefs" are logical extrapolations.

[Tiwaz]

Originally Posted by pest

Actually I hear what beer or toothpaste to use day after day. I rarely hear what religion to believe or not to believe.

You mean toothpaste or no toothpaste (still not a good comparison, we all know using toothpaste is better than not using it, this comparison would indicate religion is better than no religion, which not necessarily is the case for everyone but you get what I mean). Reason for none of us mentioning different brands of toothpaste is probably because the topic is about 'yes, religion' or 'no, atheist' and because most visitors on these forums seem American, English or from other Western countries where other religions are less popular than Protestantism.

Originally Posted by pest

I am not telling you what to believe, but I would recommend you not repeat that too many places. I dont know what heaven is either, but I would bet its not sitting on clouds with a harp.

Seems nice for a day or two..., you're right though. I have seen too many people posting messages as if they know what heaven/hell/God is like, or as if they know who goes to heaven or hell. Nobody knows this.

[Gonzo]

i think the bible is a big book of lies imo