I can remember sitting down for the First time infront of the Computer and testing a new game called "Wolfenstein 3D." starting the first level in the prison, I killed the Normal "Slower moving, not so Smart" Riflemen with one or two shots, then the "Slightly Smarter and Faster" SS Officer with 4 or five hits.... I think we need to get over this feeling that a Normal Rifleman is a slow witted moron with a rifle and a uniform, and his leader, a Officer is much smarter and faster, harder to kill and more deadly armed.

This system seems, to my knowledge, used in almost every game, whether it be a simulation, a arcade or action shooter. I think that this game, Medal of Honor, should be viewed more or less as a simulation due to it's high detail. Therefore, this dated concept of "Higher the Rank, the more intelligence" should be drop kicked out of the window to be run over in the street.

A better system to use is a random ability. Also, the more Dangerous the weapon the character has, the more deadly he is. A K-98 or M1 Rifle are both excellent battle rifles, with deadly accuracy and a powerful cartridge it can be used to good effect be a trained soldier in the combat area. A Mp-40 or Thompson Submachine Gun are excellent closer quarters and street fighting weapons, they both pack a powerful punch at close range at full automatic fire. a Mg-42 Machine Gunner is a Main Firepower for a German squad, himself and his No.2 Gunner can dominate a battlefield if properly trained. Same goes, all bit it different for a American .30 Cal Browning Machine gun crew. And Even more limited in the BAR Gunner, one per American Squad acting as the base of fire.

Rank is a Issue for the Issuing and dispersion of these weapons. For example a German Squad of Normal strength is 12 to 8 Soldiers.

Leading this squad is a Gruppefuhrer or Squad leader. He is normally a NCO (Unteroffizer for Heer (army) SS-Unterscharfuhrer for Waffen-SS) and is Armed with a Mp-40, 6 Magazines in his two Pouches on his belt, Binos, Map case and a Pistol and Bayonet.

He is then Followed by his Squad MG-team, Two sometime three men who are reasonable for crewing the Machine Gun (Either a MG-34, or MG-42). The No.1 Mg Gunner (sometimes called the Richtschutze) is from a Private to a Senior Corporal. He is armed with the MG, a Pistol, and carries one 50 round belt loaded into his machinegun and maybe a couple 100 round belts around his neck. His No.2 Gunner Carries two to three Ammunition boxes with 300 rounds linked each, plus a 100 round belt or two around his neck. He also is just armed with a pistol. The No.3 Would most likely be armed with a rifle and another ammunition can, and sometimes if he was in the Machine Gun Kompanie, he would be carrying the Laffete 42 Tripod on his back.

The MG Team was the main Firepower of the Squad, meaning instead of the MG supporting the Riflemen, the Riflemen supported and Protected the MG.

Then come the Riflemen, Each with his K-98 Rifle, a few Handgrenadies Etc. They where normally very well trained and knew their weapons well. Sometimes they would be carrying extra belts for the MG Team.

Lastly the Truppefuhrer (Or Assistant Squad Leader) would follow, He too like the Squad leader carries a Mp-40, 6 Magazines in his two Pouches on his belt, Binos, and a Pistol and Bayonet. He is incharge of the riflemen and works under the orders of the Gruppenfuhrer.

In the Above layout, there is not a smarter, faster, or better soldier divided by rank. Just Personal Skill and psychical fitness. The normal Rifleman should be just as capable as any squad leader or any other human being.

Cast away this feeling of Rank means Intelligence. I cant think of how many shake and Bake LT's where just blasted and their soldiers under them survived...Alot OCS did for them compared to their Country farmboy subordinate.

that was like 7 years ago man, much improvement has come from back then.

And They still havent really got it right..

Polaris: "but we both agree that the german equivalent to a U.S. private has to have the weakest AI"

Im not sure I follow what you are saying here. Are you saying the Normal German Soldier is less trained then a US G.I.?

Hells-Angel: ..And?

no , i'm saying , excuse my ignorance because i dont know what a german army new recruit/private was called .

also , why would i say something like that in a topic like this ?



[This message has been edited by Polaris (edited June 24, 2001).]

you have to be more clear bout the hells angel:and..... part

plus , i dont think that was 2015 that wrote those descriptions of the "Enemies Encountered" sections in the official site . i think that was EA who did that . maybe 2015 can clarify this a little more come monday morning .

either way welcome to our forum and i'm sure this game's AI will be great . http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

Hey Waffenampt, welcome.

You see, some of us here are WWII fanatics too, but uhm... none of us even come close to your level, since you do that for a living. Kinna reminds me of what I was thinking when I was watching the movie "Hackers", I kept going "huh?" at the misused terms and funny computer security tactics they used... but who cares, I only wanted to see Jolie anyway ....

I sure hope 2015 would take note when they come back on Monday; But I wouldn't expect them to get everything right, even with the help of military experts. Afterall, it's a game, and it's an action game not even a war sim http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/smile.gif Can't expect too much there man.

Polaris: Okay I see what you mean, But as far as training goes comparing the Normal German Schutze/Panzergrenadier to a U.S. Gi:
American Soldiers where given 12 weeks/3months of basic and then assigned to a unit. The normal German soldier up to 1945 was generally given 12 Months/one year of Training. This, plus their NCO corps made the German Army the Most efficent Army during the War. Ask Steven Ambrose to Heinz Guderian. Panzer Troops all went through 6 Months of Infantry before going into Panzer Training too.

Hells-Angel: What is your overall Point? That is still not clear to me.

Thanks For your Welcome, Gents!

I know this is "Just a Video Game" But I've always thought "Why eat a Jack in the Crack Hamburger when you can have Steak?" I think making the Game as historically Acurate as possible would make us nuts smile and it would even have it's educational purposes aswell. If you show it done right, instead of Half right, It will remembered as so.

Mit kameradschaftlichen Gruess! Roland Wittekind und Waffenampt

nevermind *steps down and feels stupid*

Uh, Okay..?

I truely like the Half Life Engine much better than the Q3 Engine because it seems much more realistic. But of course I am prob. wrong so it doesn't matter http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/smile.gif

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"Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!"
- General George S. Patton, Jr (addressing to his troops before Operation Overlord, June 5, 1944)

its not the game you know, its the engine that you can make stuff upon, you can make stuff on the quake 3 engine that doubles or even triples half lifes (I also love half lifes engine though) so it could look completely different from quake 3, dont know if you knew this or not just thought I'd say it.

My Comment is based on the Rambo Style gameplay of most Action Shooters.

Waffenampt have you tried rainbow six or rogue spear ?

Hey Waffenampt, could you please send the web address of your reinactment crew. I plan to visit one this summer and hopefully could see a great show. Thanks

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"Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!"
- General George S. Patton, Jr (addressing to his troops before Operation Overlord, June 5, 1944)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jerry:
Hey Waffenampt, could you please send the web address of your reinactment crew. I plan to visit one this summer and hopefully could see a great show. Thanks

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's in his profile thing.


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"Waffenampt have you tried rainbow six or rogue spear ?"

Yes, I have, It's pretty fun. But it feels more or less like I'm driving a unit of robots around, not being able to see the weapon infront of me or anything like that. And I'm quite sure to stand ready like that for hours andhours on end, would result in terrible back pain issues.

no back pains for me for 2 years http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -Waffenampt-:
"Waffenampt have you tried rainbow six or rogue spear ?"

Yes, I have, It's pretty fun. But it feels more or less like I'm driving a unit of robots around, not being able to see the weapon infront of me or anything like that. And I'm quite sure to stand ready like that for hours andhours on end, would result in terrible back pain issues.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, it feels more like moving around in a transparent flying ball.



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not unless you use F1 alot , for 3rd person

LOL, Waffenampt. You are a very educated "Military History" man. As you can tell, we are not near your level and cannot argue against your words. So if you catch us making mistakes, please do correct us but don't make us feel so... "uneducated". We try our best. You should be on the MOH:AA Project because people like you will get the ball rolling on realism. Good to have you around this fourm because your 50+ books of information. I am halfway on the book, "The American Heritage Picture History of World War II". This book is the biggest WWII Information Resource I have ever seen. It is a little under 700 Pages but if compacted to a average size book, it would be at least 1,100 Pages long. Well i'm going off subject so I shoud stop now http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/smile.gif. Well good to have you here and keep posting!

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"Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!"
- General George S. Patton, Jr (addressing to his troops before Operation Overlord, June 5, 1944)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Polaris:
not unless you use F1 alot , for 3rd person <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But, where's the realism in that?


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once again RS , you have proved me wrong . i am completely speechless by your reasoning . maybe thats why AA wont have ANY kind of 3rd person view . because like you implied , thats not realistic . good point , spoogy .
by the way , thats why that feature is banned in some of the tournaments we have . and also in the concept of realism concerning the point of view , why dont they make some form of peripheral vision for this game where we need 3 monitors to play the game or at least have a monitor that is completely concave for so at least we can see through the corner of our eyes http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by Polaris (edited June 24, 2001).]

Thanks Man, its good to see People who are interested in WWII, and the real facts and not Quake III.. We need to realize the war isnt just the black and white footage on "Suicide Missions" on "Blood and Guts Sunday" on the War Channel, and that there is a right and a wrong to authinticity and historical correctness. I'll say it again, If you do this game with going for 100%, you may only reach 95%, but It will still be more right then.. Well, Quake III.

I'm a little late on the conversation but I agree that just because there's an officer doesn't mean that the can take more hits than an average soldier. officers aren't trained to be tougher and indistructable

Don't worry. 2015 have that military advisor guy working with them, so they probably will be alright.

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..And I will Quote it aswell, from the Official Site too.

"Enemies Encountered:

The Wehrmacht Soldier is your basic grunt. He wears the basic green/gray war tunic and trousers and carries a Mauser Kar 98K rifle.

The Wehrmacht Grenadier is a tougher soldier. He usually operates stationary weapons such as the MG-42 machine gun, but also carries a Walther P38 pistol for personal close-quarters defense. They also wear the basic green/gray war tunic and trousers but usually have machine gun ammunition belts wrapped around their neck as well as additional canisters of machine gun ammo, a pistol holster, and are sometimes covered with a poncho like, camouflaged, Zeltbahn.

The Wehrmacht Field Officers are nasty and much more difficult to eliminate. They use an MP-40 SMG and Walther P38 pistol and wear the officer style cap, gray/green officers tunic with riding breeches, knee high boots and a pistol holster."

The Term "Wehrmacht" Just means "Armed Forces." So I am lead to assume that this is some sort of a Uni-Soldier from all branches of Service. And a "Grenadier" Soldier is a Machine Gunner..? And Only Officers carried MP-40's and always wore their Riding Breeches, and dress tunic and Cap..?

"Wehrmacht Field Officers are nasty and much more difficult to eliminate..." Need I say anything?

____________________________________

Recycled Spooge:

Captian Dale Dye is a Great Guy. And A Great Marine. But not a Great German Soldier. Relatively Large mistakes where made in "Saving Private Ryan" In representing German Field Operations. Again, a Great and Experienced Marine.. But Not a German Soldier..

because they are more trained, just like the rangers and the army, somethen I was watching last night, even though both soldiers, rangers are still better trained and more ready for the fight, and wait till the game comes out then make a mod or somethen

And the new guy comes out swingin'!

A Ranger is not a Rank. A Ranger belongs to that Elite group of Soldiers. A Ranger Private would be more "Ready to fight" or should we say, "Prepared to fight" then a normal Army soldier. Due to his Advanced training and qualifications.

If this was In "German Terms" It is like having a normal Heer (army) Soldier, and a Waffen-SS Officer Leading him.

It really doesnt make sence if you think about it.

Also, Because they are Trained to be a NCO or a Officer, means they know how to lead men and have more of a tactical understanding in general. This dosent mean they can kill anything faster then anyone else.

Random Intelligence sounds great but i dont know if they should make it that evident . sometimes when games try to achieve this the AI just becomes monotonous . i like variety in skills each enemy posseses , whether it be more intelligent or not . but we both agree that the german equivalent to a U.S. private has to have the weakest AI . also you have take into account that 2015 hasnt discussed this topic in public yet , they havent described how enemies react to your movements like crouching , running , etc . and it can also be seen in the movie clips they have , you cant really tell how the AI performs in those movies cause they just stand there and shoot , except for one instance where they are moving near a truck (but i cant hardly see it because of the low res quality ) so what i assume is that the AI is one of the most important aspects of the game they are working on , if not , THE most important aspect . but you never know .

I know its not a rank, I was comparing