Okay, I wasn't going to say this, but I think it's about time for me to come out and say it.

Why is their such an amazing problem when someone notices and points out errors or flaws in this game? Why do people look at these posts and just decide they as other game players, they dont want to see errors like this brought to the surface and discussed, evacuated and dealt with? Why is it these little details cause other people who dont have a historically based argument to just therefore attack the people posting the errors?

I have noticed a particular crowd of individuals on this list who respond negatively to our postings. I have just about never seen a argument coming back to me that is based on any historical knowledge. I have mearly heard complaints that no one cares. That it dosent matter. It will not effect gameplay. Gameplay. A Game is a visual, physical and mental experience. So why are the visual details Burgen and I point out just not important enough? You do want it to look right? Sometimes I seriously wonder if all of this crowd I've mentioned really even cares at all, for all they can voice is an excuse or just babble.

If you see a posting the Burgen and I either post or respond to. And You dont agree with it on a historical/realistic basis. Then post an intelligent, well thought and well researched posting. That's all we ask. Please dont waste your own precious time arguing with us with no backing aside from your own personal feelings on what you want or feel this game should be like.

To quote 2015 : "Actually, we like the flaws pointed out, but we just ask that you don't expect all of them to be fixed."

We for the most part POST these on this forum "Board of Developers" because we would like to point it out to the Developers! What a concept. We dont post them just so you can tell us what 2015 will do. That's 2015's job, Not yours, Unless of course you have something constructive, either comments or criticism, to add.

Think about it.

nice title

I think it's good that you guys point out the imperfect flaws in the game. I usually don't respond to them because I don't know a lot about the guns such as the bullets going downward or anything. Once I see a post like that I usually don't go back and look at it, because it doesn't interest me. But, I would like to have this game more realistic in that point, guns, stukas, etc. Not realistic in actual gameplay. I'm confusing aren't I.

where's dickonwheels btw ,

anyway , i hope you guys get together and form a squad online , so i'll know how much you guys are just all talk ....jk


http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Polaris (edited July 16, 2001).]

That's the Spirit Riesep http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/smile.gif

Dickonwheels is a Highschool friend of mine. He thinks this list can be a great scorce of Entertainment.

Oh Polaris, come to a Re-enacting Event someday, It's the best way to tell who's all talk. http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/tongue.gif Plus, You actually get tired from running around all day (Just like in real life!) http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by -Waffenampt- (edited July 16, 2001).]

yea , maybe someday . i'm too much of an armchair quaterback though and i'm Way past my prime . but i'm starting to work out everyday now so ...

well, i get the feeling im most of the brunt of this conversationg....

to tell you the truth i usually look at these posts from a developers point of view.... i think and talk outloud... if you complain that the bolt is not the correct size but should be about 1/4 centimetre bigger around.... then i would yell swears for about twenty minutes in my head...... stuff like that just astounds me that anyone would #1 even noticed it, #2 bother to post it knowing its not the most important thing.

yes there are problems, yes they should be brought up

but just save it for the noticable and really urgent ones... or at least the ones that make sense.

blah, dunno what to say, cant really explain it right.

basically its just the same fight over and over...


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----Savour Since 1982----

you have to realize that what is un-noticeable and wouldn't have any effect for you, may have a great effect on someone else. Like Waffenampt, myself, and many many other people. the developers use this forum because they can get suggestions from all people, for all aspects of the game. Why should this game be great for you and not for the people who really care about WWII?

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http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/bi...rop-var-15.jpg

SS-Panzergrenadier

JezusChr7st - When you wonder why I would post about something you wouldnt even notice or care about, I wonder why you sometimes even bother to move you fingers to the keyboard?

Take your skatered thoughts to Ms Word and lay them out. Then Review them so you can tell if you are actually making a point other then just dribble.

_________

Nice Sig. Bürgen!

Ive pointed out a few animation flaws or hat seem to be flaws in the garand reload animation. Ill reitterate em here. (btw i havn't been bitched at for posting this)

The animation itself to me appears to be extremly fast also the animation is missing the slide being pushed over the bullet chamber.

For a short vid click Below.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gerald.marley/untitled.wmv

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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gerald....Animation4.gif

!!WERMACHT!!
When you absoloutely positively have to kill every last ally accept no substitutes.

well, i dont really put my life into this forum or game, so i dont really care or need to spend the time writing out prefectly drafted presentations for you...

and yes but that brings us to the other major point Burgen... i didnt say enjoyable only for myself did i?
i said remembering time constraints and the fact that they would (im sure) rather get the game out on time with a few mistakes in minor detail... that is why god invented patches, they can always fix it later, or like it was already suggested make a mod using your own wonderful ideas.

and whats makes you think i dont care about wwII?

just because i dont know the exact range of a rifle or barrel length... now im suddenly just "a gamer"?

and btw, this is JUST a game, not a reinactment... so expect some flaws and live with them.

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----Savour Since 1982----

Sometimes, the posts that complain aboot realism go to far. Muzzle flash isn't that important. And others just get out of hand, BLOOD. So, people go and bitch about these things because they're so nitpicky it becomes a nuisance. At least that's why I go and put in my fifty bucks.

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I told you I'd shoot, but you didn't believe me! WHY DIDN'T YOU BELIEVE ME?

Ok, I think you guys (-Waffenampt- and Bürgen) should calm down a bit, YOU asked why some people show "Resistance & Overreaction" to your posts. JezusChr7st was 'kind' enough to answer your question (which he could have just ignored). And now your making fun of him? Come on guys, some people are going to appreciate different levels of realism then you, not everyone is going to notice that the colored line on the back of the stuka is wrong. I think you have to expect that some people 'flat out' don't care about tiny little details, and yes, they're going to tell you. I suggest you just learn to live with it.

How do I feel? I feel if you want to point out little details that most of us wouldn't notice, then power to you! Just don't get upset when others disagree with you.

JezusChr7st - Yeah, I would abstain from speaking if I had nothing to say like yourself.

"just because i dont know the exact range of a rifle or barrel length... now im suddenly just "a gamer"? "

If you did care, you wouldnt complain about being told the correct information. You would problably say "Say, I didnt know that, how about that."

I expect flaws, But if I see something wrong that they could fix, I and others tell them about it. So at least they know.

That Is all I have to say to you. And I hope you have a nice day http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/smile.gif

Hans - Kraut Killer -

If you think it is annoying, then I will repeat myself "Please dont waste your own precious time arguing with us with no backing aside from your own personal feelings on what you want or feel this game should be like."

I posted this Message to speak out on where Burgen and Myself are coming from. It isnt meant to add insult & injury at anyone. It is a plea to you guys.

"If you dont care, Dont repsond"

It's a free country and you can do whatever you want, But if you dont want to waste your time, dont respond to us.

True, infact very true. Sometimes we can be rough around the edges, but no personality is perfect. And if we see something silly on a post, and respond to it, and then get attacked for the posting, we will counter it.

Waffen , its really just the way other people might percieve the way they are being "corrected" or "informed" by you and your group . i can tell who in this forum has alot of knowledge about ww2 just by reading one or two of their posts . and there's quite a few here that know more then i do . and when you guys compare people that dont know as much as you guys , as just casual quake3 "dudes" then people get offended to say the least . like Gerard
said , he hasnt come across any resistence towards his posts about things he's pointed out because he hasnt been put in the position to defend his knowledge . also , in my opinion , you guys came into this forum way too aggresive , and when you do that , you ofcourse are going to get a little resistence for a while . i'd say dont get too defensive about what you would like to point out in the game and go ahead and flood this forum with what you want to talk about , and hopefully there will be something in one of your posts that i can argue without hesitation in all good fun .



[This message has been edited by Polaris (edited July 16, 2001).]

Polaris-

"and when you guys compare people that dont know as much as you guys , as just casual quake3 "dudes" then people get offended to say the least"

This is the manner many represent themselves, at least in my opinion. There is alot of claiming they think WWII is great and interesting, and then turn around and say something bogus and quake threeish.

I Am a amature historian. Not a human behavior student.

What the shit is wrong with being put in the same sentence as me?

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I told you I'd shoot, but you didn't believe me! WHY DIDN'T YOU BELIEVE ME?

First off, I fancy myself as knowing a good amount of WWII information. HOWEVER... there are some things which are just too picky. I never argue with historical fact, if youse guys see a problem in something I posted and correct it, I won't complain, BUT, if I go into one of your posts and say how you're being too anally retentive, you should understand that, like your input to me, I'm just trying to help. Like with the muzzle flash, I put in my nine million roobles(sp?) because it's not a big deal and I'm just saying to let it go. Why continue with futility, they'll put in whatever muzzle flash they want. AND SECONDLY... I have a lot of time on my hands, my time isn't at all precious, so I like wasting it pointing out minute details in your posts just as I'm sure you love doing in others.

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I told you I'd shoot, but you didn't believe me! WHY DIDN'T YOU BELIEVE ME?

lol

Von-

We don't, and can't, use live ammunition at re-enactments because we re-enact battles. Which means that we shoot at people! If we used live ammo, our membership numbers would drop, now wouldn't they.

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http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/bi...rop-var-15.jpg
"Victory at any Price!"

SS-Panzergrenadier

BTW,

We post our little nit-picks in the 'Board of Developers' Forum because we want 2015 to see them, they are not meant to be for your enjoyment/displeasure. If they were we'd post them in the 'general' forum. yes, you are welcome to embrace or critique our posts but don't expect us to not hold up our original thoughts if you start calling us anal retentive freaks.

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http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/bi...rop-var-15.jpg
"Victory at any Price!"

SS-Panzergrenadier

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kraut Killer:
What the shit is wrong with being put in the same sentence as me?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because you said you found it annoying, I did not. I did not say the same things as you, there for I do no want to be included in a message that refers to what you said. I would like to have a message directed at ME, for what I said, not a message directed at US for what YOU said.

heheh, sheese, I sense another 300+ post here over something that everybody is going to take the wrong way, so I'll add my 2 cents :).

We really dig that there are people that can point out the flaws in the game from a historic / accuracy perspective. We've done a ton of research, but alas, there's SO much to WWII that it's really hard to cover it all. Plus with all the little things that went on in the war (details like units customizing their armor with ad-hoc inventions, customizing paint schemes in the field, etc...), you're bound to get a slightly different perspective on everything because it was all out there. It's great because our 2D and 3D artists are dedicated to the visuals of the game. If it's a visual flaw that we can make more accurate given the time and resources and limitaions that we have to abide by, then we're glad to :). What we don't like (as I've seen on this board from several people) is when we miss a detail, and someone goes and proclaims that this game is going to suck, it's going to be no fun, their not going for realism, blah blah blah, attack, attack, attack........etc.... That's when we have an issue. We are trying our damndest to make this the best balance of accuracy, and fun gameplay, given the universe we are set in (the Medal of Honor, existing universe set it WWII that is). To say such things like because we are 'NOT ALLOWED' to have blood is going to make this a kids game, and that we're not really trying because a Panzer Grenadiers uniform is missing a stripe, is fairly upsetting and unfair.

I can totally see Waff's and Burgen's point of view, as well as others. I think all they are saying is that when they point out an inaccuracy, they do so in the hopes that we might be able to fix it. To attack them for doing so really isn't called for (and I've seen that happen on this board as well). I mean, if Waff posts something about.....say the MG42 model we have, and then someone posts something in retort like, "Sheese, you're so nit-picky, we don't care about such things, so just shut-up why don't ya!!!" That's really not necessary. He's just pointing out something that he'd like to see fixed, to attack him for that or say anything really negative about it isn't really called for. I mean, why say something like that when it's not even his point in posting the comment? Why even initiate the attack ya know? I mean if Waff came across like, "you guys suck, you can't even get this minor detail right you bunch of dickweeds, you don't know anything about WWII you morons!!!" Then I could see an attack warranted (because even I'd be saying something then ;)p. But if he's just stating some factual information in an informative manner, he's not really doing anything wrong now is he? :).

Also, something I wanted to mention about when flaws are pointed out, that some of them are done for gameplay and balance reasons. For example, the M1 Garand reload animation was mentioned as being a bit too quick. This is a really hard thing to balance when going for accuracy. The weapon reloads can't take an obscenely long amount of time because, quite frankly, it's a game :). Trying to create the reload animations with something that is accurate, yet balanced from a gameplay perspective, is quite difficult. Conscessions have to be made on one end or the other, and most of the time it's in favor of gameplay balance. Granted, that doesn't mean we're going to put in something totally wacky and unrealistic, but it's probably not going to be 100 % accurate all the time. For example, the Springfield .03 sniper rifle. In real life to reload the stripper clip, you'd have to remove the scope (or if the weapon is equiped, slide the scope forward) to allow for the clip to be postioned, slide the bullets into the gun off of the clip, and then slide the scope back into position. Most of the time they'd just reload the 5 rounds by hand. Now to do this 100% accurately, you'd have one hell of a long reload time for that gun after you've fired those 5 rounds (in either case of moving the scope, or reloading the rounds by hand). If there's one thing I hear complaining about in a game a lot is a long reload on a weapon. Granted, having a balanced reload for the power of the weapon is ok (such as the reload for a sniper rifle should take some time for balance), but to have it take an extremely long time (as it would if we did it 100% realistically), people would get upset. So we come up with a compromise of something that's along the lines of realism, looks real, but might have to fudge a factor or two for the sake of the timing (the sniper reload is in the gameplay video clips out there, and no-one has mentioned anything about it so far other than the timing on the bolt is off :). So please mention the flaws because if we can fix them, or find a better way we will try (again, try being the key word here :), but also keep this in mind if when you see the finished product, it didn't get changed :).

Anyways, there goes another novel from myself, but just offering a different perspective on it :)

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Latuh fuh U,
Benson
benson@2015.com

"We don't introduce or cause bugs in the game, we merely find and bring to light the inadequacies within the code."
-regarding level designers

wow..... boxing match in this corner http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/smile.gif

well, why dont we try this again and get along

/me puts hand on table for various shakings

i agree with all of you, including bergen and waffy.

give us the great details, the minor shiat, the stuff no one else would notice, its great that you can point these out and have the knowledge to even know about them! thats great, but hey like they said stuff like that you cant possibly expect the rest of us to care about or comprehend.

to us as long as the gun fires and looks pretty decent, hey its all good.. but i can see where you are coming from... im a big computer nut, networks and all that...... so i get the same thing when someone starts talking to me about certain things.... i just dont see there side of it and only my side... with the knowledge.

so neways

you get the point



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----Savour Since 1982----

haha, thanks elmagoo. Look that was your 100th post. Hans when you said "this is a free country, I can say anything I want to", is incorrect. Cuba is not a free country, it is a Communist state, so you can't say anything you want. Now I'm not quite sure you're from Cuba though. Elmagoo, why haven't you guys talked lately. You and the other developers haven't talked on this forum in more than a week I think. I appreciate you posting, but don't you got a game to make. What is 2015's deadline for getting the game done? Please tell us so we can know when you guys are going to be able to talk to us more often. Thx

Waffen - In you "recreations" do you use live ammunition or blanks ? I ask because Burgen stated that blanks have alot more muzzle flash than live rounds... So shouldn't you start using live rounds (If you don't already) so you can fix up that minor flaw ?

Hmmm. Polaris said is best.. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>also, in my opinion, you guys came into this forum way too aggresive, and when you do that, you ofcourse are going to get a little resistence for a while.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> We know you guys have a great knowledge of all things WW2 but dont act as though we are stupid as you have done so in the past, acting that way not only shows you have no respect for people that may not have as large a knowledge as you but it also shows to me that you are arrogant. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why should this game be great for you and not for the people who really care about WWII?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That is the most fucking ridiculous thing I've heard in my life, grow up. Who are you to say that another person doesnt "care" about WW2 as much you ? That as I said before is a clear indication of your arrogance and it's something I dont care for.

Just another question..why do you glorify war so much ?

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http://www.usmedals.com/prodpix/p295.jpg
Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to War and my fingers to fight.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by riesep:
haha, thanks elmagoo. Look that was your 100th post. Hans when you said "this is a free country, I can say anything I want to", is incorrect. Cuba is not a free country, it is a Communist state, so you can't say anything you want. Now I'm not quite sure you're from Cuba though. Elmagoo, why haven't you guys talked lately. You and the other developers haven't talked on this forum in more than a week I think. I appreciate you posting, but don't you got a game to make. What is 2015's deadline for getting the game done? Please tell us so we can know when you guys are going to be able to talk to us more often. Thx<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually that wasn't me that said that, I think it was Jezus, or KK, not sure.

Your right about Cuba though. But I have Castro's favor, so I can pretty much say what I want, or have you all shot, so don't screw with "ma athorita"! http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/wink.gif

hans is probibly from the middle-of-no-where in kansas...

...and 'castro' is the name of his goldfish

Close, very close...

I know i'm such a social-jackass

Now Castro is angry, I wouldn't go swimming for a while if I was you. That's how I got this *Hans points to peg-leg*...


...The bowl is empty! Watch your back!

Wookie- I think who ever said that means that if you dont care about the detail or what ever, why should you care? Might as well make it good for the people that will notice, the others just wont notice. If you dont care about the details then why are you bitching, they wont hurt the game. All in all it comes down to... Shut up. Its one thing to just not know the material and its another to say what ever, give me the game.

Elmagoo its not that the garand reload is too quick its just from what we can see its missing a part of the reload sequence. In the video we can see the bullets literally be sucked into the garand at a high rate of speed and thats it.

The m1 has a slide that goes over the top of the bullet chamber it wasn't obvious in the video if this part of the animation was there or not. Is it?

And if you can say yea or nay to whether omaha will be playable online i would be happy. (especially if its the yea answer http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/smile.gif)

Elmagoo - Excellent, I knew you would be able to bring clearity to this topic. I am glad to see your truthful and clear post here, and I knew if you havent said anything this would of gone around in circles forever.

Anyways, Back to the Game... http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/smile.gif

We haven't posted much because we're down to the wire and trying to get this puppy done :). Things are looking good so far, the final AI is coming together more, animation scripts are being made to give them more personality, levels are starting to get fully populated, etc.... So it's getting exciting for us seeing the project start to come together as a whole :). Hence if we're abscent more, that's why. We still try to check the posts a bit when we can, but there are so many now it's really hard to check them all when you've missed a few days. So I usually come back and check like the top 10 or so.

As for the Omaha beach / multiplayer thing, we don't really know for sure yet about all the multiplayer maps. That's going to involve a lot of testing to see what the net stuff can handle.

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Latuh fuh U,
Benson
benson@2015.com

"We don't introduce or cause bugs in the game, we merely find and bring to light the inadequacies within the code."
-regarding level designers

Hm wel hopefully omaha wil be online . Id be gutted if it wasn't http://www.pcgamers.net/ubb/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by Gerard (edited July 17, 2001).]