Alliedassault           
FAQ Calendar
Go Back   Alliedassault > Lounge > Offtopic
Reload this Page Rifles
Offtopic Any topics not related to the games we cover. Doesn't mean this is a Spam-fest. Profanity is allowed, enter at your own risk.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old
  (#16)
Divingdw is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 155
Join Date: May 2002
 Send a message via ICQ to Divingdw Send a message via AIM to Divingdw Send a message via MSN to Divingdw  
Default 11-11-2002, 11:08 AM

I rest this case......Shut the fuck up. evil:

Murders are still committed with legal pistols. YOU'RE an idiot if you believe otherwise.

Explain to me why any citizen would need to own a pistol?[/quote]

Nevermind you tripper, you can keep your oppinion, but I'm not going to shut the fuck up because you don't fucking understand mine. You think that by banning all pistols, its going to keep them away from people? All I can say to you is that's bullshit. You must not understand what a 'black-market' is, so maybe I should explain it to you.


A black market is a desire to sell and buy illegal items. Anywhere from drugs, guns, to smuggled animals. Everything goes undocumented in the black-market so it's harder to trace and find the people who own certain things. So usually, the people who buy guns off the black-market have a greater advantage when performing illegal activities, no one knows they have a gun. In turn, this makes it HARDER for police to track him down. And, since people who buy off the black-market KNOW that it's illegal, it makes it EASIER for them to break into someone's house or rob a bank... etc. because most likely, the law-abiding citizen who is sleeping in his house has no defense. Not only that, but it will promote more theft and burglary just so people can buy a pistol that will cost 10x more on the black market than it would at a gun store. Hence, more money will go into the black-market, which in turn will mean more illegal activity, which in turn will mean a greater threat to an individual's security.

So, by making a gun illegal, it's only going to make them more desirable to the people that break the law, and make it harder for people that follow the law to defend themselves. Maybe you have no need for self-defense, but your neighborhood isn't the same as everyone elses. I've seen neighborhoods where you don't have to lock your doors at night, and I've seen some where if you don't have three locks and a dog, you are almost guaranteed to get your house broken into.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#17)
Rabid-Peanut is Offline
Member
 
Posts: 41
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Pennsylvania
   
Default 11-11-2002, 12:12 PM

your allowed to conceal a weapon, it is not illegal it is every citizens right,you canhunt by the age 12 you can own a rifle,shotgun,or any other standard longbarreled weapon other than a pistol at the age of 18.At 21 you are allowed to carry AND CONCEAL a sidearm or any type of handgun.

You can become an NRA member at the age of 16.........by the way.until 16 you can only hunt within yelling distance of an adult (someone 21 or older that is there hunting with you. Honestly, when you join the NRA they send you newsletters with upcoming events in your state, who to vote for on election day, and times of general meetings. M16: M16:
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#18)
Tripper is Offline
General of the Army
 
Posts: 18,895
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
   
Default 11-11-2002, 12:43 PM

Divingdw, I think you should read this, fuck-knuckle:

Taken from Austin Chronicle
"In one afternoon at a suburban high school in Colorado, more Americans were killed than during one month of war in Yugoslavia. The same was true of the Gulf War: Many more American children died of gunfire during those weeks than did our soldiers in combat. These days it is safer to be an American soldier in a war zone than an American child in a high school. What fact could shame us more? Yet every voice of government and the media joins in a shrill chorus constantly repeating that we are the greatest nation in history. Would we need to boast so often, every day, so many times a day, if we really believed it?

The bodies of the children in Colorado were still warm -- literally -- when various gun advocates went before the cameras to say such an event need not and should not mean that our gun laws must be changed. Several suggested that the massacre wouldn't have happened if teachers and guards had been armed. Their solution is more guns! But we have failed utterly as a civilization if for the first time in history schoolteachers need to pack weapons. And if we demonstrate such fear of our children, then our children have no choice but to fear themselves and to fear us, to fear and fear and fear, until fear eats away every value that education is supposed to stand for.

In fact, there was at least one armed guard at that suburban high school; he exchanged a couple of shots and then retreated to wait for reinforcements; the SWAT teams arrived while the massacre was still going on, reports now say, and they conferred for over an hour before going in. At least one person who might have been saved bled to death during their conference. So much for men with guns.

Our American infatuation with guns is our admission of cowardice; because if you need a gun to feel secure you are really saying that you feel no inner strength with which to confront a stranger. One set of numbers says it all, as reported in The New York Times: "In 1996, handguns were used to murder 2 people in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 30 in Great Britain, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany, and 9,390 in the United States." There is no conceivable argument against those numbers. The other countries have strict laws about handguns; we don't. Let's see, we lost roughly 50,000 soldiers during 10 years of war in Vietnam; so in 1996 Americans at "peace" suffered, from handguns alone, roughly 18% of the casualties of 10 years of war. What conclusion can be drawn but that we are at war with ourselves? That we have driven ourselves so crazy that no enemy is as dangerous as our neighbor -- and our neighbor's children?


illustration by Jason Stout

How does one stop this domestic war? With whom does one negotiate? What are the terms of a cease-fire, much less of peace? As for disarmament: The so-called "gun lobby" is financed by arms manufacturers and by men too frightened to feel strong without a weapon nearby, and we endure a political system in which legislators can be bought with "donations"; guns are in massive supply on our streets and in our homes because greed and fear are built into our system of governance. The result: The only countries with yearly casualty rates that approach or exceed ours are Third World countries in states of civil war. How can we justify ourselves? How can we call ourselves "great"? How can we see American civilization as anything but demented and out of control when compared to any place but a Third World country ravaged by poverty and internecine strife?

The President spouts platitudes, the high school principals sputter helplessly, the parents walk in dazed horror, the gun lobby is stern and shrill -- and commentators indulge in hours of blab, saying nothing because that is precisely what they're paid for, so that viewers will be numbed by a constant spew of televised ineffectuality. After all, if the highly paid thinkers on the tube are ineffectual, how can we blame ourselves for our own helplessness? And all of this is done to mask the truth that we, as a culture, cannot face, a truth articulated by James Baldwin years ago:

"We, the elders, are the only models children have. What we see in the children is what they have seen in us."

What the children see is not hard to figure out. By and large, they see this:

People who say one thing, but do another. People who profess beliefs that they do not, in any way, live by. People living a lie. For instance: in a country that overwhelmingly and stridently calls itself "Christian," what could be more contradictory, more self-defeating, more of a lie, than a Christian with a gun? The thing children hate more than anything is being lied to, being faked. And our children are lied to every day, everywhere they look, by almost every television show and advertisement -- and they know it. They're lied to by adults who demand that their kids live by ideals while preparing these same kids, in countless ways, to live only by money. And what our kids hate and fear most is that their "education" consists largely of lessons in how to buy into the biggest lie of all: the lie that if only you have enough money you'll be alright. Some kids can't bear being lied to on such a massive scale. And some, a very few, do awful things. At which the rest of us pretend to be shocked. But we're not really shocked. We're revealed. We sell these children the means to insulate and corrupt themselves, and we market the means by which they can kill themselves and each other, and then we blame the kids for our terror when a few are driven mad by this virulent mixture of our lies and of what we've enticed our children to buy.

Several weeks ago I quoted a 15-year-old student, Morgan Whirledge in another context, but his writing is well worth quoting again, because I've found no more cogent commentary or explanation for what those murderous boys did in Colorado, and why they did it:

"What's in? Why? The image, the look, the personality, the surface. It's in you, whether subconsciously or consciously, it's there. I think everyone knows and deals with this every day, minute, second of their lives." Morgan goes on to speak of children assaulted by television, media, technology, abuse, ignorance, disrespect, and lies, and then he writes: "And so the kid sits, silent, in a mess of artificially inseminated thought. A shattered life around him, as easy to break as a mirror. He grows and eventually sees himself. A reflection. He is holding a sledgehammer, given him by his world. It is for mending the shattered pieces of fragile glass."

In Colorado, the "sledgehammer" those boys picked up was a gun -- many guns and bombs. They were not going to be able to mend anything. They had been given no hope of escape but to join a world they saw no possibility of joining. So, laughing as they killed, they murdered those whom they could neither emulate nor befriend. Were they responsible? Of course. Were they what we made them? Of course. It is too simplistic to say it is either one way or the other; it is, most awfully, both. Their parents, their teachers, and their society, were not strong enough to give those boys the strength to stand either with or against the collective lie that is America. Their morality dissolved. They chose to join the ranks of the unspeakable. They made us feel their horror by enacting their horror. By becoming their horror. What could be a more terrible fate for a child? The others at least died innocently. That is horrible too, but not as horrible as dying stained with the greatest and most heartless sin there is.

What can we do? That's what everybody is asking, but nobody wants to face the answer -- especially because the answer is fragile and uncertain and difficult. Still it is the only answer there is:

Stop living your lie.

Live in your truth, that your children may live in theirs. Your children can't respect your truth all the way unless you're willing to live it.

The people you have to lie to, own you. The things you have to lie about, own you. When your children see you owned, they can't help but feel owned by what owns you. When your children see you owned then they are not your children anymore, they are the children of what owns you. If money owns you, they are the children of money. If your need for pretense and illusion owns you, they are the children of pretense and illusion. If your fear of loneliness owns you, they are children of the fear of loneliness. If your fear of the truth owns you, they are children of the fear of truth.

I say this in grief, as a sinner and a liar and a failure -- my truth, like yours, is always more than I can bear. But there are two kinds of failures: the failure of honest effort, and the failure of avoidance and denial. In the failure that always accompanies honest effort, there are lessons and courage and dignity. In the failures of avoidance and denial, there is only more failure. When we choose, we are also choosing for our children. It is they who must pay for every one of our evasions. And now, in America, the payment is often in blood."


My point was always, and still is, that your gun laws are to blame for your high gun-related death rate. Explain why the Black Market isn't so rampant in other countries?
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#19)
Tool-back is Offline
Member
 
Posts: 97
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: california
   
Default 11-11-2002, 01:28 PM

when weapons are outlawed only the outlaws will have them.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#20)
Divingdw is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 155
Join Date: May 2002
 Send a message via ICQ to Divingdw Send a message via AIM to Divingdw Send a message via MSN to Divingdw  
Default 11-11-2002, 01:29 PM

Tripper, I'm glad you posted that article.

Your first article, I understand how that follows your point.

However, your second article doesn't seem to, it blames the problems on the people who have lied and claimed they were something they wern't. Sure, you can pull out a quote or two from it and say it goes well with your point. But the base idea of it seems to put blame on corruption and lies. Which only makes the quote 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people' more valid. Thats majorly how I believe. There are always going to be people with guns, and there will always be a huge population of fucked up people. Now, granted that if fucked up people get their hands on guns, it will cause a lot of problems. MY POINT is, even if we made guns illegal, they can still get their hands on these guns. If I was near some nut with a gun, I would like it if I at least had something for my defence. So, maybe the reason we have more deaths by guns here in the US is because of corruption and lies from the system?

I can't explain why our Black-Market is so nuts, my theory is because our police are corrupted as well. They have an order of importance, and if they make more money on a drug-bust, they are going after that before they worry about the life of one person. They are always fighting the 'black-market', but it never seems to go away, and as long as the system can make money off of it, it won't ever go away.

Oh, and just to be fair, for the little 'fuck-knuckle' comment you made...

Read this Dick-Sickle:

"There are certain lessons in murder that cannot be ignored. Namely this:

Once a committed individual, group or nation decides that murder is an objective worth pursuing, then taking a life is only a little more difficult than taking a breath.

Germany today grieves the loss of its blissful post-war ignorance. It is coming to grips with the painful realization that its domestic security was an illusion based on the false assumption that "American-style" violence could be averted by strict gun control.

The illusion is gone. A powerful nation's vulnerability was dramatically exposed by the violent actions of a disaffected 19- year-old man. Last Friday morning, Robert Steinhauser, expelled from his high school for several weeks, returned to the school with a shotgun and a sidearm. And he went hunting for adults.

Shortly after 11 a.m., he commenced a 10-minute massacre that instantly changed Germany's sense of itself. Steinhauser shot 13 teachers, two students and a police officer before pulling the trigger on himself. In the end, Steinhauser managed to kill more people than the gunmen at Columbine High School.

As a result, those in Germany, along with many in Europe, are wondering how such violent behavior managed to fester undetected for so long.

"So-called 'American conditions' have reached us. We cannot let these excesses of violence become a part of our daily life," said Konrad Freiberg, the head of Germany's police union.

"This is so unique that it exceeds one's powers of imagination," echoed Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder. "I think we all need time to work this through in our minds. There are questions here that we have to answer as a whole society."

One can only wonder if, in the quest to answer those questions, Germany will enforce a more repressive and counterproductive crackdown on gun ownership than has been seen in modern history. On the day of the massacre, parliament coincidentally approved a measure to further tighten weapons laws. Even before that, Germany was home to some of the most restrictive gun laws in the world.

Such a move will scarcely make Germany safer internally or prevent the type of violence that occurred last week. About 2.3 million Germans have the right to own guns for sporting purposes. Steinhauser reportedly was not one of them. His guns were obtained and stored illegally.

So what lessons does the young German present to us as the gun- control debate continues unabated in America and abroad?

The availability of guns does not initiate a massacre. The massacre is initiated by intent. In a land with strict gun control, a teenager obtained powerful weapons and went on a school rampage that resulted in more casualties than any American school has ever experienced.

This is not meant to suggest that American or German teachers should be sent to the classroom armed with lesson plans and handguns. But it is meant to suggest that small-arms control serves mostly to disenfranchise those inclined to obey the law or to defend life.

History teacher Rainer Heise, who reportedly locked Steinhauser in an empty classroom, effectively ending the massacre, said the killer uttered these words before the door slammed shut:

"That's enough for today, Mr. Heise."

Germany will probably find that chilling statement to be prophetic. An illusionary security door has now been blown wide- open.

Morris is an associate editor of The Plain Dealer's editorial pages."

This happened in Germany, where gun-control laws are much more strict than the US's. However, it doesn't stop people from getting guns and using them incorrectly.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#21)
Tripper is Offline
General of the Army
 
Posts: 18,895
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
   
Default 11-11-2002, 01:34 PM

My point still stands nonetheless.....The American system fucked up. Past or Present, how ever you debate it...The GREAT nation fucked up, and has a high death rate now....
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#22)
Innoxx is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 8,546
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: I don't know
 Send a message via ICQ to Innoxx Send a message via AIM to Innoxx  
Default 11-11-2002, 01:39 PM

Why don't we stop making guns altogether? the only people who are allowed to have guns are the military. England doesn't issue the Scotland yard with guns and they are doing alright. It may be a macro idea to you Americans since you people have a gun fetish (don't deny it) but if all the major arms companies stopped making civilian guns, and just stuck to their military contracts then I think we'd see major drop in gun related accidents. Fuck the NRA. I enjoy hunting but I won't miss it. no real need to hunt anymore and if there is an overpopulation of a certain species then.......
[img]http://www.army-technology.com/projects/sabra/images/sabra1.jpg[/img]
Well, that's my opinion, don't like it? Go fuck yourself.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#23)
Divingdw is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 155
Join Date: May 2002
 Send a message via ICQ to Divingdw Send a message via AIM to Divingdw Send a message via MSN to Divingdw  
Default 11-11-2002, 01:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripper
My point still stands nonetheless.....The American system fucked up. Past or Present, how ever you debate it...The GREAT nation fucked up, and has a high death rate now....
Yes it has... that was never denied.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#24)
SoLiDUS is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 5,158
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Gatineau, Qc, Canada
 Send a message via ICQ to SoLiDUS Send a message via MSN to SoLiDUS  
Default 11-11-2002, 01:43 PM

I don't think people should own knives: knives are constantly used to kill
people: should we take away the knives? Oh, won't someone please THINK
of the CHILDREN!?!!?

If I want to own a gun, I will, no matter what anyone says. I know I wouldn't
go out on killing sprees anyway. I like shooting targets, I like the science of
sniping and I simply like the damn things. Why does "protection" need to be
a reason for the justification of gun ownership ? Fuck reasons. The problem
never WAS the gun, anyway.

If you don't agree with me, I'll hunt you down and shoot you. biggrin:
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#25)
Divingdw is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 155
Join Date: May 2002
 Send a message via ICQ to Divingdw Send a message via AIM to Divingdw Send a message via MSN to Divingdw  
Default 11-11-2002, 01:46 PM

Here's another article for you:

"Are gun manufacturers responsible when their products are used to cause harm? That's the central issue in a case brought before the California Supreme Court last week, and in a case decided last month by New York's highest court.

The outcomes have implications for the gun industry specifically as well as tort liability law in general. They are closely watched cases.

The California case involves a massacre in San Francisco in 1993, when Gian Luigi Ferri used a gun to kill eight people, wound six and kill himself. The victims are suing Navegar, which made the gun Ferri used.

So far, at least, the court "appeared reluctant ... to make legal history by holding gunmakers liable for the criminal use of their weapons," the San Francisco Chronicle reported. A ruling is expected later this year.

"This gun allowed Ferri to do this, but I thought you said it caused this. That's different," said Justice Kathryn Mickle Werdegar to Dennis Henigan, lawyer for the victims and the general counsel for the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence.

"Where do you hold the line?" John Lott wondered when he talked to us; he's a professor at Yale Law School and author of "More Guns, Less Crime." "Are the auto companies responsible for accidents caused by drivers? It's a slippery slope. Once you cross that line, there's no place to stop other than to sue every company for what customers do wrong with their products. These are just harassment suits to try to impose very large legal costs on gun manufacturers, who are in a very small industry."

The result, ironically, could be more crime. The legal costs will force manufacturers to charge more for guns, which will make it harder for poor people to purchase them. "Poor people benefit most from having handguns," Mr. Lott observed, because they are more likely to live in high-crime areas. "So poor people will be hurt. There will be a greater increase in crime than if gun prices stayed lower."

His book concludes that criminals don't care much about gun laws, obtaining guns on the black market. But criminals do care about whether their victims have guns because then the victims can shoot back.

In a similar case heard before New York state's Court of Appeals (the state's highest court), a unanimous verdict April 26 found in favor of gunmakers, even though this court is considered one of the most liberal in the land.

"We should be cautious in imposing novel theories of tort liability while the difficult problem of illegal guns in the United States remains the focus of a national policy debate," Court of Appeals Judge Richard C. Wesley wrote in his opinion. The case now will go before the U.S. Second Circuit Court of Appeals, which had asked the New York court for this ruling concerning state law.

The California Supreme Court likewise should side with common sense and the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms and find that only people, not inanimate objects, can be found guilty of willfully taking a human life."
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#26)
Innoxx is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 8,546
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: I don't know
 Send a message via ICQ to Innoxx Send a message via AIM to Innoxx  
Default 11-11-2002, 01:47 PM

Join the military. Think of it, if no one is allowed to own guns and the only way to shoot guns is to join the armed forces; the military would get the attention it needs. Mr. Chretien would most likely put more money into the military and we could invade some country..... they'd never see it coming. CANADA..... The peaceful country that just snapped.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#27)
SoLiDUS is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 5,158
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Gatineau, Qc, Canada
 Send a message via ICQ to SoLiDUS Send a message via MSN to SoLiDUS  
Default 11-11-2002, 01:53 PM

Join the military ? ... and become a pawn in a human chess game ? Hell no.

I know this is cliche, but guns don't kill people: disturbed people do. Take
away the hammer and the nut will use a screwdriver. Any questions ? hake:
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#28)
Innoxx is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 8,546
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: I don't know
 Send a message via ICQ to Innoxx Send a message via AIM to Innoxx  
Default 11-11-2002, 01:57 PM

Yeah true there will always be the crazy and disturbed, but at least my idea would prevent little timmy from blowing away the babysitter with a shotgun. Let the nut use the screwdriver, I will most likely be in the Military by then and I hope the nutter takes out as many stupid people as possible. Yeah, I can feel it....
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#29)
Sgt>Stackem is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,161
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Detroit, MI
   
Default 11-11-2002, 02:06 PM

1
Gun Control Misfires in Europe
Wall Street Journal Europe
April 30, 2002

By John R. Lott, Jr.

European gun laws have everything American gun control proponents advocate. Yet, the three very worst public shootings in the last year all occurred in Europe. Indeed around the world, from Australia to England, countries that have recently strengthened gun control laws with the promise of lowering crime have instead seen violent crime soar.

Sixteen people were killed during last Friday¹s public school shooting in Germany. Compare that to the United States with almost five times as many students, where 32 students and four teachers were killed from any type of gun death at elementary and secondary schools from August 1997 through February 2002, almost five school years. This total includes not only much publicized public school shootings but also gang fights, robberies, accidents. It all corresponds to an annual rate of one student death per five million students and one teacher death per 4.13 million teachers.

In Europe shootings have not been limited to schools, of course. The other two worst public shootings were the killing of 14 regional legislators in Zug, a Swiss canton, last September and the massacre of eight city council members in a Paris suburb last month.

So one must automatically assume that European gun laws are easy. Wrong. Germans who wish to get hold of a hunting rifle must undergo checks that can last a year, while those wanting a gun for sport must be a member of a club and obtain a license from the police. The French must apply for gun permits, which are granted only after an exhaustive background and medical record check and demonstrated need. After all that, permits are only valid for three years.

Even Switzerland¹s once famously liberal laws have become tighter. In 1999 Switzerland¹s federation ended policies in half the cantons where concealed handguns were unregulated and allowed to be carried anywhere. Even in many cantons where regulations had previously existed, they had been only relatively liberal. Swiss federal law now severely limits permits only to those who can demonstrate in advance a need for a weapon to protect themselves or others against a precisely specified danger.

All three killing sprees shared one thing in common: they took place in so-called gun-free ³safe zones.² The attraction of gun-free zone is hardly surprising as guns surely make it easier to kill people, but guns also make it much easier for people to defend themselves. Yet, with ³gun-free zones,² as with many other gun laws, it is law-abiding citizens, not would-be criminals, who obey them. Hence, these laws risk leaving potential victims defenseless.

After a long flirtation with ³safe zones,² many Americans have learned their lesson the hard way. The U.S. has seen a major change from 1985 when just eight states had the most liberal right-to-carry laws--laws that automatically grant permits once applicants pass a criminal background check, pay their fees, and, when required, complete a training class. Today the total is 33 states. Deaths and injuries from multiple-victim public shootings, like the three in Europe, fell on average by 78% in states that passed such laws.

The lesson extends more broadly. Violent crime is becoming a major problem in Europe. While many factors, such as law enforcement, drug gangs, and immigration, affect crime, the lofty promises of gun controllers can no longer be taken seriously.

In 1996, the U.K. banned handguns. Prior to that time, over 54,000 Britons owned such weapons. The ban is so tight that even shooters training for the Olympics were forced to travel to other countries to practice. In the four years since the ban, gun crimes have risen by an astounding 40%. Dave Rogers, vice chairman of London¹s Metropolitan Police Federation, said that the ban made little difference to the number of guns in the hands of criminals. . . . ³The underground supply of guns does not seem to have dried up at all.²

The United Kingdom now leads the United States by a wide margin in robberies and aggravated assaults. Although murder and rape rates are still higher in the United States, the difference is shrinking quickly.

Australia also passed severe gun restrictions in 1996, banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively. In the subsequent four years, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24%, and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%.

Both the U.K. and Australia have been thought to be ideal places for gun control as they are surrounded by water, making gun smuggling relatively difficult. Of course, advocates of gun control look for ways to get around any evidence. Publications such as the New York Times and the Los Angeles Times blame Europe¹s increasing crime problems on a seemingly unstoppable black market that ³has undercut . . . strict gun-control laws.² Let¹s say that¹s the case--even then, these gun laws clearly did not deliver the promised reductions in crime.

It is hard to think of a much more draconian police state than the former Soviet Union, yet despite a ban on guns that dates back to the communist revolution, newly released data suggest that the ³worker¹s paradise² was less than the idyllic picture painted by the regime in yet another respect: murder rates were high. During the entire decade from 1976 to 1985 the Soviet Union¹s homicide rate was between 21% and 41% higher than that of the United States. By 1989, two years before the collapse of the Soviet Union, it had risen to 48% above U.S. rate.

In fact, the countries with by far the highest homicide rates have gun bans.


2
Small Arms Save Lives
The Wall Street Journal Europe
http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB9 ... 587961.htm
July 30, 2001
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Small Arms Save Lives

By John R. Lott Jr. Mr. Lott is a senior research scholar at Yale University Law School and author of "More Guns, Less Crime" (University of Chicago Press, 2000).

The United Nations' conference on small arms, which ended in controversy earlier this month, had an admirable enough goal: to save lives. Some conference attendees claimed that guns used in armed conflicts cause 300,000 deaths world-wide every year. The "international community's" proposed solution? Prevent rebels from getting guns by requiring that "member states complete a registry of all small arms within their borders" and by "limiting the sale of such weapons only to governments."

This may be an understandable "solution" from governments that don't trust their citizens. But it also represents a dangerous disregard for their citizens' safety and freedom. For that reason, the Bush administration should be thanked, not scolded, for effectively squelching the accord. Why? First, and most obviously, because not all insurgencies are bad. It is hardly surprising that infamous regimes such as those in Syria, Cuba, Rwanda, Vietnam, Zimbabwe, and Sierra Leone support these provisions. To ban providing guns to rebels in totalitarian countries is like arguing that there is never anything such as a just war.

But, in hindsight, would Europeans really have preferred that no resistance was put up as Hitler rolled across Europe? Should the French or Norwegian resistance movements simply have given up? Surely this would have minimized war causalities. Many countries already ban private gun ownership. Rwanda and Sierra Leone are two notable examples. Yet, with more than a million people hacked to death over the last seven years, were their citizens better off without guns?

Schindler's Guns

What about the massacre of civilians in Bosnia? Would that have been so easy if the Bosnian people had been able to defend themselves? And what about the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto during World War II? Wouldn't it have been better if they had more guns to defend themselves? With all the well-deserved publicity for the movie "Schindler's List," the movie left out how Schindler, an avid gun collector, stockpiled guns and hand grenades in case the Jews he was protecting needed to defend themselves. More recently, the rules would have prevented the American government from assisting the Afghanis in their fight against the Soviet Union.

There is a second reason to avoid a ban on small arms. Even in free countries, where there is little risk of a totalitarian regime, gun bans all but invariably result in higher crime. In the U.S., the states with the highest gun ownership rates have by far the lowest violent crime rates. And similarly, over time, states with the largest increases in gun ownership have experienced the biggest drops in violent crime.

Recent research by Jeff Miron at Boston University, examining homicide rates across 44 countries, found that countries with the strictest gun control laws also tended to have the highest homicide rates. Earlier this month, news reports in Britain showed how crimes with guns have risen 40% since handguns were banned in 1997. Police are extremely important in stopping crime, but almost always arrive on the scene after the crime occurs. What would the U.N. recommend that victims do when they face criminals by themselves? Passive behavior is much more likely to result in serious injury or death than using a gun to defend oneself. The only serious research on this issue has been conducted in the United States.

The National Crime Victimization Report, done by the U.S. Department of Justice, indicates consistently that women who behave passively are 2.5 times more likely to be seriously injured than women who defend themselves with a gun. It is the physically weakest people (women and the elderly) who benefit the most from having a gun. Criminals, overwhelmingly young males, like to attack the targets that will give them the least trouble. A gun represents a great equalizer. Defensive gun uses are almost completely ignored by the media, but Americans use guns defensively about two million times a year, five times more often than guns are used to commit crimes.

Media Disregard

No one would ever learn this by simply watching the news. In part this disregard by the media might arise because an innocent person's murder is more newsworthy than when a victim brandishes a gun and an attacker runs away with no crime committed. Unlike the crimes that are avoided, bad events provide emotionally gripping pictures. But covering only the bad events creates the impression that guns only cost lives. Even the rare local media coverage of defensive gun use in the seldom involves more than very brief stories. News worthiness also dictates that these stories are not the typical examples of self-defense, but the rare instances where the attacker is shot. In fact, in up to 98% of the cases, simply brandishing a gun is sufficient to stop a crime.

Fewer than one out of 1,000 defensive gun uses results in the attacker's death. World-wide we hear about crimes like the public-school shootings, as we should, but we never even hear locally about the many more lives saved. Since the well-known public shootings started in the fall of 1997, 32 students and four teachers have been killed in any type of shooting at elementary or secondary schools, an annual rate of one death per four million students. This includes deaths from gang fights, robberies, accidents, as well as attacks such as the one at Columbine.

But some sense of proportion is needed. During that same period, 53 students died playing high school football.

-- From The Wall Street Journal Europe

3
When Gun Control Costs Lives
Licensing legislation diverts attention from getting criminals off the street.
By John R. Lott Jr., a senior research scholar at Yale Law School and the author of More Guns, Less Crime
California's government, which has ably demonstrated its skills at regulating energy, is searching for new vistas to regulate. This past Thursday the California Assembly passed by one vote a bill to license handgun owners. A slightly different bill has already passed the Senate, and the two bills must be reconciled in conference. Yet before the final decisions are made and Governor Davis makes his decision, examining the experience in places like Canada and Hawaii might be helpful. As with electricity regulation, the best intentions are not always enough. When fighting crime, mistaken laws can cost lives.

Canadians are a law-abiding lot, but, as of January 1st of this year, millions have become criminals. Bill C-68, Canada's gun-licensing law that passed in 1995, gave half a decade's warning for people to obtain gun licenses. The Canadian program's obvious failure to license most gun owners despite its no-expense-spared approach should give Californians advocating licensing some pause.

Officially the Canadian Department of Justice now claims that its recent surveys show only 2.5 million Canadian gun owners — a 31-percent drop from what the government claimed just a couple years ago. But press accounts reveal internal Justice Department documents putting the number at 5 to 7 million gun owners, and academic and private surveys indicate numbers just as large.

What is most surprising is that any Canadians admit to pollsters that they own a gun without a license. With only 2 million Canadians licensed or in the process of being licensed, roughly 10 to 16 percent of Canadians are now felons.

Getting the government to release the costs of licensing is like cracking the black-ops budgets in the U.S. defense department. The numbers have even been refused to many members of parliament. Inside sources have told MPs that, excluding any costs borne by the Royal Canadian Mounties as well as local police, $265 million (Canadian dollars) was spent by the federal Canadian Firearms Centre this past year. To put it another way, just this limited accounting corresponds to 5 percent of all police expenditures in Canada.

Yet, the real costs of these unfunded mandates are borne by the provinces and local governments. No attempt has been made to record how many hours local police officers have spent processing paper work, but complaints are common. For example, the attorney general of Alberta complains that the law is an administrative mess, it is very costly, and it is using money that would be better suited to really fighting crime.

The California State Sheriff's Association, which has come out strongly against the legislation, has raised similar concerns and warned that the California legislation will spread already undermanned police agencies even thinner.

The ultimate question, though, is what impact these rules might have on violent crime. While Canada's system is too new to discern any impact, the experience in our own country is not encouraging.

In theory, if a gun is left at the scene of the crime, licensing and registration will allow a gun to be traced back to its owner. Police have spent tens of thousands of man-hours administering these laws in Hawaii (the one state with both rules). But, amazingly, there has not even been a single case where police claim licensing and registration have been instrumental in identifying the criminal.

Why? Criminals very rarely leave their guns at the scene of the crime. This really only happens when the criminals have been seriously wounded or killed. Would-be criminals also virtually never get licenses or register their weapons.

So will at least licensing allow for even more comprehensive background checks and thus keep criminals from getting guns in the first place? Unfortunately, there is not a single academic study that finds that background checks reduce violent-crime rates.

The California legislation is also filled with pages detailing everything from when grandparents are allowed to temporarily loan a gun to their grandchildren, to the politically correct gun myths that licensees must regurgitate on the licensing exam, to requiring that mandatory testing be done in only English or Spanish. For a state with election ballots printed in over 80 languages, this last requirement appears racist. But with the new fees and hundreds of dollars required for training classes, in addition to recent California laws outlawing inexpensive guns, the Democratic legislators who support this bill appear anti-poor. After all, it is the poor who are most likely to be victims of crime and to benefit the most from being able to protect themselves.

Those who so automatically see licensing as the solution to crime face an obvious question. As police spend thousands of man-hours enforcing the licensing, what else might they do with their time? Ventura County Sheriff Bob Brooks stated his concerns simply: "It is my belief that this legislation significantly misses the mark because it diverts our attention from what really should be our common goal: holding the true criminals accountable for the crimes they commit and getting them off the street."

4
More gun control, please

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: October 24, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2002 Laurence A. Elder


More gun control, please!

Gun-control proponents, predictably, in the wake of the Beltway sniper, urge still more gun-control laws. So, as news watchers sit through another round of softball interviews with gun-control advocates, we humbly offer Second Amendment-challenged hosts some suggestions for questions:

Why does Switzerland, a country that requires a military-style rifle, plus ammunition, in every home, enjoy a very low homicide rate?

Why does Israel, a country where perhaps 10 percent of citizens possess permits to carry concealed weapons, enjoy a very low murder rate?

Why do gun-control proponents fail to mention countries with homicide rates higher than ours, including Brazil and Russia, with very restrictive gun-control laws?

Why does Washington, D.C., a district whose laws make it illegal to buy, possess, transport or acquire a handgun, experience the highest per capita murder rates in the nation?

Why does Canada, a nation of 31 million citizens, with official estimates of 7 million guns – although other experts place the number at 25 million – enjoy a low per capita murder rate?

Why did America, a hundred years ago, when citizens could purchase guns anonymously and with few of today's restrictions, enjoy a murder rate of 1.2 per 100,000, vs. the 5.5 rate in 2000?

Why don't gun-control proponents talk about the rising murder rate in severely gun-restricted England? "The American murder rate," writes Reason magazine, "which had fluctuated by about 20 percent between 1974 and 1991, was 'in startling free-fall.' We have had nine consecutive years of sharply declining violent crime. As a result the English and American murder rates are converging. In 1981, the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and the latest study puts it at 3.5 times." According to Reason, after a few days of crime after crime, "London police are now looking to the New York City police for advice."

Why does The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence's website say, "The risk of homicide in the home is three times greater in households with guns"? They fail to mention that Dr. Kellermann, the expert who came up with that figure, now distances himself from it.

According to the Wall Street Journal, Dr. Kellermann now says, "A gun can be used to scare away an intruder without a shot being fired," although he admits that such events weren't included in his original study. "Simply keeping a gun in the home may deter some criminals who fear confronting an armed homeowner."

Kellermann also admitted, "It is possible that reverse causation accounted for some of the association we observed between gun ownership and homicide – i.e., in a limited number of cases, people may have acquired a gun in response to a specific threat." In other words, some people obtain guns because they are more likely perpetrators, or they fear becoming victims, of violent crime.

How often do Americans use guns each year for defensive purposes, some of whom – but for their guns – might have been killed? Criminologist Gary Kleck estimates that 2.5 million Americans use guns for defensive purposes each year, and approximately 400,000 of them believe someone would have been dead had they not resorted to their defensive use of firearms. A government study put the figure at 1.5 million.

Why do gun-control proponents fail to admit the ineffectiveness of the Brady Act? Following the 1994 Brady Act's imposition of a 5-day waiting period for the 32 states previously not subject to such waiting periods, those states should have seen a reduction in crime, compared to the other 18 "control" states. But according to The Journal of the American Medical Association, "Our analyses provide no evidence that implementation of the Brady Act was associated with a reduction in homicide rates. We find no differences in homicide or firearm homicide rates to adult victims in the 32 states directly subject to the Brady Act provisions compared with the remaining control states." The study did find a decrease in gun suicides for men over 55. But the overall suicide rate remained unchanged. Men over 55 simply resorted to other means to kill themselves.

A father recently sent me the following letter: "I had to go to work unexpectedly one night due to an emergency. My 8-year-old daughter was a little worried that I would be leaving her and my wife alone. We live in a very nice and safe neighborhood but nonetheless she was concerned. I jokingly told her that no bad men would come in our house because I put out a sign that read, 'No Bad Men Allowed.' She frowned and immediately responded, 'Daddy, bad men don't do what the signs say. That's why they're bad.'"

Some things are so complicated only a child can figure them out.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry Elder, controversial radio talk-show host from Los Angeles, is the author of the libertarian blockbuster "The Ten Things You Can't Say in America." Get your autographed copy now in WorldNetDaily's online store!

I have more!!!! JOIN THE NRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mb
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#30)
Bartlett is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 673
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Southport, Merseyside, England
 Send a message via ICQ to Bartlett Send a message via MSN to Bartlett  
Default 11-11-2002, 03:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripper
[quote:29165]Rest your case? Most murders are done by illegal and unregistered guns, not by the guns that they sell at Wal-Mart or a gun shop. So you rest no case. It really ticks me off when people think that making guns illegal will just automatically get rid of them. You're an idiot if you don't think there is something called a 'black-market'.
I rest this case......Shut the fuck up. evil:

Murders are still committed with legal pistols. YOU'RE an idiot if you believe otherwise.

Explain to me why any citizen would need to own a pistol?[/quote:29165]

because people think they're cool, and I ain't saying I disagree! but then again, if people only bought firearms for pleasure at ranges then they can keep them there, right?
  
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.12 by ScriptzBin
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
© 1998 - 2007 by Rudedog Productions | All trademarks used are properties of their respective owners. All rights reserved.