[Bean 2]

In your opinion, what are the top reasons why germany lost World War II?

[imported_Fluffy_Bunny]

Hitler declared war on too many people.

[Ferich]

Hitler's decisions are the top I'd say. To start off...If the atomsphere was right and he listened to his officers he could've easily waited a few years and built up his army to the corp that would be needed to fight a large scale conflict with many countries involed. You'd see Jet powered planes bombing Warsaw, Riflemen carrying high caliber STG44 variants, huge armadas of King Tigers ( other experimental tanks ) roaming the land, a lot of rockets, and a lot of men in uniform. This would take a few years to achieve yes, but don't forget the fact that Germany was trying to "do" what I just said in the end days of the war,etc. And of course, this was impossible since industrial nazi-germany was pretty much bombed out by then. But at the beginning and slow burning parts of the war industrial nazi-germany was in it's prime.

Commanding the war personally. Political leaders should focus on politics. The more deeply involved politicians get in the running of a military operation the more screwed up that operation usually gets.

Another blunder was in using Methamphetamines. A lot of the flawed decision-making going on outright delusion was probably a result of the Meth, or at least was aggravated by it.

Blitzing all of the way to the Dunkirk beachead would certainly have improved his situation, but wouldn't have been a knockout blow. It would have cost the British a lot of experienced troops but they could have come back from it, given time.

Keeping the pressure on the front line airfields and radar stations along the south coast of England during the Battle of Britain would have made a huge difference, perhaps enough to be decisive. Especially if combined with crushing the beachead at dunkirk, England could potentially have been taken out of the war.

Not concentrating on North Africa and the mediteranean in 1941 was another big mistake. This of course assumes that he was unable to invade England successfully. Taking control of this area would have done three things. It would have secured vital petrolium reserves which would have meant plenty of fuel for combat operations, plenty of petrolium for manufacturing fertilizer and for making propellants too. Securing the mediteranean, especially Gibraltar and the Suez Canal would have further isolated England from her colonies and would have helped out the Italian fleet. Also it would have allowed Germany and Japan to join forces. Together they could have shut down the lend-lease pipeline to the Soviet Union with ease and begun the process of crushing the Soviets. A small note: although it is huge the Soviet Union was never able to feed itself or exploit its resources efficiently. Unless significant reforms were made, it would have collapsed. Even with massive ongoing economic assistance from the west it eventually collapsed anyway.

The lack of petrolium may also explain the German failure to deploy the Me 262 earlier, since jet engines burn a lot more fuel than proeller planes and would have made supply issues more difficult. Also the critical shortage of tungsten which is needed to withstand the high temperatures of a jet engine.

One of Hitlers big blunders was that he had developed a contemptuous attitude toward the Soviets based on reports from German "volunteers" serving with Finnland during the Winter War between the Finns and Soviets between '39 and 40. After their humiliation at the hands of the Finns, Hitler assumed that the Soviets could be crushed without difficulty.

Ordering Gundarian to surround and mop up enemy troops instead of driving straight for Moscow was a huge blunder. I don't know if the Soviets would have surrendered even if Moscow had been taken, but it was the Germans' best hope for a quick end to the war.

Hitler made many more mistakes of course:
http://www.faqfarm.com/History/WWII/8427

[snipes]

[quote="Fluffy_Bunny":7d575]Hitler declared war on too many people.[/quote:7d575]
Yeah. Invading Russia was one of his biggest mistakes of the war.

[rdeyes]

hitler didnt listen to his generals when it came to making key decisions or thats what i have heard oOo:

[Jin-Roh]

Eastern front problem:

- Hitler should have used [url=http://www.onwar.com/maps/wwii/eastfront1/1okhplan.htm:a32db]OKH's Operation Barbarossa Plan[/url:a32db]. They would have had a better chance of taking Moscow and Leningrad and other northern cities, while maybe more of the panzer and or mechanized forces protected the southern flanks, and could have possibly attacked Moscow from behind.

... But of course, the USSR shouldn't have been touched until Germany had a peace with the UK. You can also say that Hitler lost because of Japan's mistake to attack Pearl Harbour. Some people suggest that Japan and Italy were nothing but useless puppets that would get in Germany's way, or something like that.

[ninty]

Invade Britain instead of Russia. Once Britain falls, you can basically do what you want. Russians aren't going to attack, so you can hold off on them for a while.

Bottom line, they shouldn't have invaded Russia.

[HeadUp]

there was this thing on the history channel about how hitler was addicted to all kinds of drugs, especially speed, up to 20 or so i think

it was found in physicians records that around the time he decided to invade russia, he was at the point where he would recieve injections of speed and amphetamines when he got up every morning

these drugs are associated with his agressive behavior that worked very well. his actions can be tracked through his addiction to these drugs, the reich was collapsing as his drug problem began to spiral out of control.

i think that was one of the reasons the war was lost

but primarily, it was because of the us, which was japan's fault

the germans could have rocked everything had they not declared war on the us and russia, while still trying to hold north africa and central and western europe as well as parts of asia, india and the middle east, they were too spread out andengaged in too much

i fear this is the kind of shit america is trying to pull with the war on terror

[imported_Fluffy_Bunny]

Originally Posted by Ferich

he could've easily waited a few years and built up his army to the corp that would be needed to fight a large scale conflict with many countries involed.

Hitler had to strike before 44 as other countries were also re-arming once the Munich crisis was over and they realised what he was up to. Russia and Britain were undergoing speedy re-armament programmes, had he waited a few years the countries that he would be fighting would be a lot more powerful.

[quote:4c51f] You'd see Jet powered planes bombing Warsaw, Riflemen carrying high caliber STG44 variants, huge armadas of King Tigers ( other experimental tanks ) roaming the land, a lot of rockets, and a lot of men in uniform.
This would take a few years to achieve yes, but don't forget the fact that Germany was trying to "do" what I just said in the end days of the war,etc.[/quote:4c51f]

Mostly achieved with slave labour, Hitler only turned to this tactic of wonder weapons once the tide of war had turned and he knew he was losing. Other countries would also be experimenting with wonder weapons. Japan had a jet fighter by the end of the war & so did Britain, albeit with a little help from the ME262.

[quote:4c51f]But at the beginning and slow burning parts of the war industrial nazi-germany was in it's prime.[/quote:4c51f]

Germanys industry reached its height at the same time of the height of allied bombing sometime in 1943/44. Hitler was too afraid to wreck the Nazi economy, with the choice of 'butter or guns'. Hitler chose butter.


Hitler never planned for World War Two, he wanted to get as far as he could diplomatically and then fight a small sharp war which he could win. Once it turned into a World War Germany was lost and at the start he knew this. The first triumphs at the start of the war probably warped his crazy ego enough to underestimate the USA & other allied powers.

[Jin-Roh]

Well done fluffy. rock:

I need to start doing more... research, eh.

[Machette]

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Choms ... Nazis.html

[Trunks]

should have taken their time. This is what they should have done. First defeat france and britain. Get russia to ally with u. Attack america with Japanese, Russian, and German forces. America would have fallen. Then procede to conquest other countries. Backstab russia, and take control.

[Ferich]

Hey Fluffy beer:

[quote="Fluffy_Bunny":a1206]
Hitler had to strike before 44 as other countries were also re-arming once the Munich crisis was over and they realised what he was up to. Russia and Britain were undergoing speedy re-armament programmes, had he waited a few years the countries that he would be fighting would be a lot more powerful.[/quote:a1206]

I went without saying, but my stand point was from before 38. I meant Hitler made a mistake by not recognizing the big picture. Without any of the later day facts being involved( since they didn't exist yet ), german indsutrial power and throwing in things from Mein Kempf ( hatred for jews, slavs and the "Allies" of ww1 ) into my theory, I think he definately made a mistake at the beginning to fight with weapons that "could only get the job done," or manifesting conflict so quick with a broad scale of enemies without the big picture in mind. I'm speaking of before Hitler threatened to invade Czechoslovakia unless Britain supported Germany's plans to takeover the Sudetenland.

My original theory is just a blueprint to one of Hitler's biggest mistakes, imo.

[quote:a1206]Mostly achieved with slave labour, Hitler only turned to this tactic of wonder weapons once the tide of war had turned and he knew he was losing. Other countries would also be experimenting with wonder weapons. Japan had a jet fighter by the end of the war & so did Britain, albeit with a little help from the ME262.[/quote:a1206]

The German research for new weapons during the Second World War was negatively influenced by the German victories in the beginning of the war,yes. In those early years it looked like Germany could win with it’s usual weapons. There was no need for secret weapons. But because of a low interest in the "old" weapons individual German companies did research for new weapons.

German scientists were already investigating with nuclear power and rockets in 1932 then full scale in 39.

But of course as I implied, if Gemany could've recognized that they'd be facing a wide array of opponents and fronts before the war, they could've had new tactic/weapon ideas floating around. And to miss this could easily be named a mistake by Hitler.

Everything I said first off was just part of a theory that would need all the facts running towards secret weapon production at the beginning of the war, but of course history tells a different story....( broken record )

Again, my theory has nothing to do the with factual models of secret weapons ( STG44,etc ) or the facts that cause their unique production, but with the fact that German industry was CAPABLE of producing and brainstorming "advanced for their time" weapons.

I'm mostly throwing WHAT IFS into the air with my original theory, not facts. Which is why I'm sort of puzzled as to why you ripped my theory apart. biggrin:

[quote:a1206]Hitler never planned for World War Two, he wanted to get as far as he could diplomatically and then fight a small sharp war which he could win. Once it turned into a World War Germany was lost and at the start he knew this. The first triumphs at the start of the war probably warped his crazy ego enough to underestimate the USA & other allied powers.[/quote:a1206]

Hitler definately planned for a war. Diplomacy is part of any plan to go to war, as you can see that happening nowadays and a million times through history. His crazy ego was carved in stone since he promised the German people greatness in the 30's, so I think that cancels out him ever thinking it'd only be sharp conflict. Never heard that before anyways.

Hitler felt that (with some grain of truth) that Germany had wrongfully been forced to take total blame alone for WWI and made to pay tremendous reperations to the victors, mainly France. Don't forget the despression in some parts of Germany in the early 30's. So he had an easy time of it to convince Germans that he could fix all that by renouncing the Versaise treaty and bring Germany to greatness again. After he came to power he wanted to conquer Slav/French territory.

Hitler also announced in 1935 that Germany had gained an airforce/navy/etc and that they had started conscription. Hitler's excuse for this was that he wanted Germany to keep up with the other countries in size of army so Germany could not be invaded and taken over. Though there could have been another reason, Hitler was planning war and Germany needed bigger armies. He was testing Britain and France once again to see what they would do but they did nothing and they let it happen. Then at the end of 1935 a deal was made between Britain and Germany. This Deal was to prevent Germany getting more powerful than that of Britain. They were told that there Navy was to be 35% of Britons, this deal was agreed. Although Germany agreed to this they still kept up conscription while Britain was unaware. This is the time period I'd see Germany moving towards advanced weapons production. ( I think advanced Radar and Night Vision was investigated in this time period. )

Hitler took over the Rhineland 1936. This was pushing Britain and France even further to see how far Hitler could get without being stopped

The invasion of Poland in sept 1939 was to regain territory taken from Germany after WWI. The invasion of France was another matter mostly for vengence after the way France treated Germany after WWI (Which the US advised against but was not heeded by the French who understandably wanted revenge for the way France was fought over in WWI and demanded very harsh terms in the Versaise treaty)

In conclusion, I was saying if German Industry at said time turned toward better weapons production in the beginning of the war, that'd be a crowning achievement. But that just didn't happen, which constitutes it being a mistake that cost the war or missed opportunity " ", correct? Which is what Bean was asking.

[imported_Fluffy_Bunny]

Originally Posted by Ferich

I went without saying, but my stand point was from before 38. I meant Hitler made a mistake by not recognizing the big picture. Without any of the later day facts being involved( since they didn't exist yet ), german indsutrial power and throwing in things from Mein Kempf ( hatred for jews, slavs and the "Allies" of ww1 ) into my theory, I think he definately made a mistake at the beginning to fight with weapons that "could only get the job done," or manifesting conflict with a broad scale of enemies without the big picture in mind. I'm speaking of before Hitler threatened to invade Czechoslovakia unless Britain supported Germany's plans to takeover the Sudetenland.

My original theory is just a blueprint to one of Hitler's biggest mistakes, imo.

Hitler didn't really have a plan he just had a vague idea of what he wanted to do & exploited situations as they arose. Taking over France in something like 2 weeks with weapons that could 'only get the job done', is a job done well ihmo.



[quote:8b939] but with the fact that German industry was CAPABLE of producing and brainstorming these weapons into the picture at the early days of the war.[/quote:8b939]

England had a turbojet engine plan in 1930 but the fact that these machines and weapons werent used until 1945 shows that technologically they were not capable at the start of the war.

[quote:8b939]I'm mostly throwing WHAT IFS into the air with my original theory, not facts. Which is why I'm sort of puzzled as to why you ripped my theory apart. biggrin:[/quote:8b939]
Don't mean to rip it apart I just disagree with some of the things, I only mean to create an interesting topic of debate & remain on polite & gentlemanly terms I never go looking for an argument. Whatsoever the issue be I hope there is no animosity between us.


[quote:8b939]Hitler definately planned for a war. Diplomacy is part of any plan to go to war, as you can see that happening nowadays and a million times through history.[/quote:8b939]

Hitler didn't plan for a 'World War', when he declared in 1935 that the Luftwaffe was the size of, or bigger than the RAF he was lying. But since he said it he was immediately believed and when Churchill told the House of Commons about the threat from the Luftwaffe he was only doing Hitlers work for him and scaring everyone into believing that Hitler was a threat.

German re-armament was largely a myth until 1935 when Hitler had to start re-arming because everybody else was. Chiefs of staff plan for war because it is their job, when the German Cheifs of Staff met with the Italians before the war they discussed a war against Britain and France because that was the only likely one to happen. British and French Officers were discussing of a possible war against Germany and Italy but this is not held against them.

Hitler managed to take a large portion of Europe without firing a shot, he did this diplomatically through fear and intimidation. He never wanted a World War because he knew Germany could not win. He did want to attack Poland and possibly Russia to gain lebensraum & because of the German victory against Russia which he believe was robbed from them in 1917. The only plan to attack France was a defensive one, Plan Yellow which was essentially the Schlieffen Plan in everything but name. When the German blitzkrieg broke through the Ardenne and threw the allies into retreat Hitler was able tp take over France as an unexpected bonus.

[quote:8b939] After he came to power he wanted to conquer Slav/French territory.[/quote:8b939] Slav but not French, unless perhaps it was Alsace Lorraine.


[quote:8b939]In conclusion, I was saying if Hitler did turn toward a more advanced German Military and newage weapon production, the cards would've been in his hands. And his mistake at not seeing the big picture, cost him the war[/quote:8b939] An interesting theory but I think if Hitler was able to have these weapons at the start of the war he would have done so. It takes a long time for projects to get off the drawing board and onto the battlefield.

[Ferich]

I think the nails in the coffin with my Secret Weapons theory. It has it's debatable facts and it's solid facts. All good points on your part though. But in the end, since it's just a farfetched theory, I'd just consider it that. A "possible" plan, but not the most likely.

Here's some more blunders I added to my original post:

Originally Posted by Ferich

Commanding the war personally. Political leaders should focus on politics. The more deeply involved politicians get in the running of a military operation the more screwed up that operation usually gets.

Another blunder was in Hitler using Methamphetamines,etc. A lot of the flawed decision-making going on outright delusion was probably a result of Hitler's addiction to Meth, or at least was aggravated by it.

Blitzing all of the way to the Dunkirk beachead would certainly have improved his situation, but wouldn't have been a knockout blow. It would have cost the British a lot of experienced troops but they could have come back from it, given time.

Keeping the pressure on the front line airfields and radar stations along the south coast of England during the Battle of Britain would have made a huge difference, perhaps enough to be decisive. Especially if combined with crushing the beachead at dunkirk, England could potentially have been taken out of the war.

Not concentrating on North Africa and the mediteranean in 1941 was another big mistake. This of course assumes that he was unable to invade England successfully. Taking control of this area would have done three things. It would have secured vital petrolium reserves which would have meant plenty of fuel for combat operations, plenty of petrolium for manufacturing fertilizer and for making propellants too. Securing the mediteranean, especially Gibraltar and the Suez Canal would have further isolated England from her colonies and would have helped out the Italian fleet. Also it would have allowed Germany and Japan to join forces. Together they could have shut down the lend-lease pipeline to the Soviet Union with ease and begun the process of crushing the Soviets. A small note: although it is huge the Soviet Union was never able to feed itself or exploit its resources efficiently. Unless significant reforms were made, it would have collapsed. Even with massive ongoing economic assistance from the west it eventually collapsed anyway.

The lack of petrolium lost in blundered conflicts may also explain the German failure to field the Me 262 ( other vehicles that eat up fuel ), since jet engines burn a lot more fuel than proeller planes and would have made supply issues more difficult. Also the critical shortage of tungsten which is needed to withstand the high temperatures of a jet engine.

One of Hitlers big blunders was that he had developed a contemptuous attitude toward the Soviets based on reports from German "volunteers" serving with Finnland during the Winter War between the Finns and Soviets between '39 and 40. After their humiliation at the hands of the Finns, Hitler assumed that the Soviets could be crushed without difficulty. Which of course, caused two fronts.