[Snuff]

Originally Posted by Tripper

Don't you realise? It was merely 40 YEARS ago....FOURTY....That the word 'Ni**er,' was used by ALOT of american whites towards blacks. Most whites back then were openly racist - mainly because they didn't know any better. FOURTY years ago segregation existed, with the minority getting the underhand.

Most of the people that faced the OBVIOUS oppression back then - are STILL alive. They have families.
Do you expect them to just forget their past and move on? HAH! That's almost (although, a little extreme) like the sons and daughters of the Nazis, telling the holocaust jews, fourty years on, to "Get over it!"

I mean, doesn't this seem a tad bit unfair? Because this is, in essence, what you're telling those African-Americans who "pull the race card," or what ever the fuck you call it.

Most of these people have a right to not trust White Americans. I mean, if all they faced from whites was oppression, just fourty years ago...

...Alot of YOUR parents lived during this time period, and most probably a couple of them exercised racist attitudes.........But don't get me wrong - I'm not saying you fellas are the ones to blame at all - I'm simply saying, from the view on other side of the tracks, American Whites could be just as racist as they ever were.

Who knows.

In todays PC world, its as though those who still manifest racist attitudes, have to hide them......unlike they did back pre-civil rights era.

....So whos to know who actually still exercises racist attitudes in more subtle ways? (i.e, employing an equally qualified white over a black)

That's what affirmative action is about.

Can you all see what I'm saying?

BTW - I'm still not saying its alright for those african americans who push the "race-card," to do so (I'm also not saying it isn't), I'm simply saying that it is a state of affairs that needs sensitivity and a gradualist approach.

And also, this has nothing to do with Ed's "Nit-picking" (Although, on another note, I tend to agree with what he's saying), but this is more of a general evaluation of what you're getting at.

I typed a well worded response Tripper but for some reason I couldn't submit it. I appreciate the well thought out reply. I'll try to be concise so don't take this as being blunt.

First of all "40 years?" your a little off. My high school wasn't completely desegregated until 1972. I graduated in 1992 and there was a damn near race riot in 1987. I am born and raised in the south and have been exposed to many forms of racism. No need for a history lesson to me.

As far as the "my nigga" coment. My point wasn't to say that the black community should "just froget about it". I was just saying that for balcks to say that and for other races it is "off limits" is a double standered not a "principle" as Ed spoke of it. That is not to say that I want to start using the phrase but if it offensive ,NOBODY should be using it. It baffles me that a term with such as nasty history from the root word n***er (as you pointed out) has found its way to be a term of endearment in African American pop culture.

There is a time for the racecard to be dealt, just not everyhand. Point being that everyone should treat others(races, sexes, handicapped, ect.) with respect and not take theirselves to seriously. As I staed earlier there are differences between races, sexes ect. and humor can be found if it is not malcious. Hell Chris Rock and George Carlin make millions at doing just that. I dont feel Hollywood's comment (the one that started this discussion) was malicious in nature. Stereotypical yes, but we all make consience and unconscience stereotypes everyday. That was my point earlier about the confederate flag and hiring logic Ed used.

Maybe some people feel they can't trust white Americans. Thats fine but that is a stereotype. A bulit in prejudice such as that can be as detrimental as the stereoypes and isuues they themselves are trying to overcome. I'm just saying for things to work it has to work both ways. You do make some valid points Tripper some I do agree with some of your points and some statements I partially or dont agree with, but if we all agreed there there would be no dicussion.

[Xorcist [USA]]

The race thing goes both ways but to me one side is alot more vocal about it. I live in a city divided by a river and there are shootings everynight. (literally) Now I am not going to be an idiot and not expect to be harassed if I went down to the east side of town, that is a no brainer. This is just the way it is in some places. My grandmother still lives on the east side and if my car broke down on the way to visit her, I am sure something alot worse than being called a cracker would happen. Does that make me racist? I think not. It makes me aware of the real world. Sad but true.

And this reverse discrimination bullshit? Wtf is that about. Last I knew discrimination was discrimination. I'm not racist, somedays I hate everyone.

Another thing that peeves me is that for some reason it is the modern generation's fault for slavery. I'm so sick of hearing about it. And demanding reparations for all of this.........give me a fucking break. It was African slavemasters that sold the slaves to the Europeans. The Europeans who settled America. But now that we are called Americans, the taxpayers might have to pay for the actions of the settlers who started the trend of slavery in America. Whatever.

[ED!]

[quote:756f2]It was African slavemasters that sold the slaves to the Europeans.[/quote:756f2]

You've got to be kidding me. Granted there could be instances where other Africans aided in their brother and sisters capture - HOWEVER, - and I'm still laughing that you just typed that out as a definitive statement - Portugeuse "businessmen" started the slave trade in Africa, and it was bicked up on by other Euro countries. So no, you could just turn a corner and find a helping African ready to sell out his fellow people.

And as far as reperations - well I dont think if your mother smoked cigarrettes so and so years ago, and died, you'd think your family had a time limitation on receiving remittance. I truly wish some of you would do some research into slavery and see just how fucked up it really was and ho wmany lives and families it ruined. Or not - I mean it happened in the past, its ALL in the past right.

[Xorcist [USA]]

Yes I did look around before posting that. Here are some quotes from a certain site.

"Because the economies of Africa did not depend on slave labor, the number of enslaved people was small until European traders arrived."

Julia Hotton, curator of the West Africa exhibit, "Captive Passage: The Transatlantic Slave Trade and the Making of the Americas," believes the European trans-Atlantic slave trade was much more violent than the African slave system.

According to Babou, many African slaves were treated like family members.

"A domestic slave, a slave that was pretty much incorporated into family, was like an adopted child in the family. They were not a commodity. They were not dehumanized," Babou explained.

Phillips disagreed, insisting that Africa's domestic slave trade was and still is dehumanizing.

"Slavery is a cultural system. It has been going on [since] ... Moses," Phillips said.

"Of course [slavery in Africa] was dehumanizing. Of course people were denied their God-given rights. People were treated as subhumans; they were treated as animals," he said.

I did not in any way blatanly post some irrelevent bs. I looked around.

Here is the link to that site........it is an article on The Smithsonian's African American history museum:

[url:b71c2]http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/3/6/145738.shtml[/url:b71c2]

As for the smoking issue, I would not expect anything in return for me (or any family member) destroying themselves by smoking but thank you for speaking for me.

[ED!]

Lol oh ok - so a loved one dies needlessly and of COURSE youre just going to let it go. Why thats certainly human nature.

And what exactly does your report say - that the "slave" was just another member of the family. He's still a slave no matter how many ways you slice it. He still couldnt leave or be fearful of being killed. He didnt have a choice, only given the option of making the most of what he's done.

Why do we need reperations or some RECOGNIZED OFFICIAL condemnation by the government - because simply now its just a "oh well, yanno we'd never do it again, but who are we to judge". Funny, we judge other countries everyday but cant turn that microscope inward. Funny that slave traders didnt mind TAKING from Africa, but couldnt give a damn about GIVING back to them.

[Xorcist [USA]]

I can see this is going nowhere so I am not going to waste my time debating a point I made.

I respect your culture Ed and in no way do I mean to offend you or anyone who has personally suffered as a result of slavery or racism in general.

I'm leaving it at that. I made a point and gave some personal opinions. If you disagree....great, that is what a forum is all about. I am done replying to this thread.

[Drew]

I've been staying out of this thread, mainly because I'm extraordinarily disappointed not only by opinions posted - on both sides - but by the fact that a thread about TUPAC somehow spiraled into a thread arguing RACISM.

I looked back on the thread and it looks to me like the argument started after AADiC made a comment about Tupac being the "black man's Elvis." - ED, I thought a lot more of you than to throw down the race card over such an absolutely trivial comment. Not only have I heard you make much more tasteless comments in IRC, I'd say that every single black stand-up comedian I've ever heard has made a more biting joke toward other races, so get off your high horse and come back when you stop holding double standards. Otherwise I want to see a thread full of you denouncing black on white racism.

As for myself? I grew up in a predominantly black area. Our school was about 70/30. Most of my friends were black. I ate dinner at their houses all the time. I still talk to them regularly. One of my two best friends is black. So I don't want to hear you try and throw the race card on me.

As for discrimination in the marketplace, or in schools? Not only was I denied admission to Virginia Tech because of affirmative action (I have the letter somewhere explaining how, although my credentials were better than 90% of all applicants, I was denied because I was out-of-state and NOT a minority), I was also turned away from a job with the FBI and told to my face that I was better qualified but that they were required to maintain a certain percentage of minority employees. Affirmative Action is nothing but reverse discrimination. I've been fucked by it twice, and I've sure as hell have never screwed over a minority in an equal fashion. So don't tell me that this all goes one way. I'm as far from racist as they come, and I still get screwed.

The N word? I hate it. Ask anyone in IRC. I won't hesitate to kick/ban from the channel if someone keeps it up. I don't give a shit about context.

Reparations? To begin with, the smoking comparison is a bad analogy, because smoking is something brought upon the person by their own inability to care for themselves. If a person is so weak and lacking in will power that they not only begin to smoke, but continue to do so for the duration of their lives, they deserve cancer for their stupidity. That's going to piss people off, but the fuck if I care. They spent their lives destroying their bodies. You can't do that and expect for everything to be okay. Back on topic, I completely agree that there should be absolutely no time limit on collecting reparations for damages done to a past culture. As a matter of fact, ED, I'll send you my PayPal address so that you can start stroking a check for the centuries of slavery that YOUR African ancestors held MY Hebrew ancestors in. Only, YOUR ancestors were much more brutal, so I think that I deserve a bigger check. So if you get a reparation check, get ready to sign it over to me. Yeah, I agree with reparations. Bring on the cash.

Again, that this thread devolved into a racist argument over such a petty comment which wasn't even that bad disappoints me beyond what I can express. The comment wasn't even that bad, this was just instigated because AADiC is AAN and ED will jump at any chance to deface them. If Tripper had made the same comment, ED might not have even been in the thread. That's petty, ED, and I'm disappointed. And no, I don't support AAN either. I don't really have anything against them, but I'm not going to defend them either.

I'm finished. Someone lock this pile of shit.

[img]http://www.0ed.net/uploader/uploads/heil.gif[/img]

[ED!]

Hey you can believe this thread was started out of malice - and no AADic did NOT make the comment. If anyone thinks I wouldnt have called ANYONE out over a comment I feel they've made MALICIOUSLY (all in context folks), then theyre sadly mistaken. As it is I saw within the kids comment a ridiculous and grossly generalized statement that smacked of ignorance. And it spiraled from there. This bullshit idea that "hey it happened in the past", or "dude just get over it youre making it worse" - is a fucking joke. Point. Period. The idea, that folks being vigilant to signs of racism intentional or not, and calling people out on it being the ones continuing to advance "racism" is so ludicrous and laughable its almost insulting. Do you REALLY think that without Affirmative Action this country could be counted on to not let their inherent racism shine through. Is the system perfect. Hell fucking no its not. But god almighty I wouldnt want to live in this country without Affirmative Action because my parents had to and no folks it was NOT Disney Land.

The smoking example not good enough - ok heres another one; You're GIRLFRIEND is raped, horribly. No, how about MOLESTED as a child. And she just now remembers it. She wants to go after that sumbitch. But you say "no honey, it's in the past lets not worry about it." Screw it, lets have it be YOU. If you all would do NOTHING, then you're better people then us petty blacks who would more than like settle for an official government condemnation of the act. And hey if MY ANCESTORS (which would mean you'd have to get not only the continent, but the country, and more than likely the tribe too) enslaved your folks, damn right someone needs to be held accountable for their actions.

Regarding Black comedians using racial stereotypes - I never said it was right or fair, however again context definately needs to be looked at. When someone says "Why cant white people dance" and procedes to riff on it getting a laugh out of the audience, it isnt seen in the same light as when someone says "Im not gonna hire that black man, he'll probably be late and sleep on the job". Please tell me we understand this.

If someone wants to think I'm on some sort of high horse, I could give a damn, I really could. Racism - in all its forms that I have seen PERSONALLY - deserves to be pointed out and stamped the hell on like the piece of flaming shit there is.

Joking with the "boys" is one thing, making a sweeping broad statement is wholly another.

[Drew]

[quote="ED!":39c1e]Hey you can believe this thread was started out of malice - and no AADic did NOT make the comment. If anyone thinks I wouldnt have called ANYONE out over a comment I feel they've made MALICIOUSLY (all in context folks), then theyre sadly mistaken. As it is I saw within the kids comment a ridiculous and grossly generalized statement that smacked of ignorance. And it spiraled from there. This bullshit idea that "hey it happened in the past", or "dude just get over it youre making it worse" - is a fucking joke. Point. Period. The idea, that folks being vigilant to signs of racism intentional or not, and calling people out on it being the ones continuing to advance "racism" is so ludicrous and laughable its almost insulting. Do you REALLY think that without Affirmative Action this country could be counted on to not let their inherent racism shine through. Is the system perfect. Hell fucking no its not. But god almighty I wouldnt want to live in this country without Affirmative Action because my parents had to and no folks it was NOT Disney Land.

The smoking example not good enough - ok heres another one; You're GIRLFRIEND is raped, horribly. No, how about MOLESTED as a child. And she just now remembers it. She wants to go after that sumbitch. But you say "no honey, it's in the past lets not worry about it." Screw it, lets have it be YOU. If you all would do NOTHING, then you're better people then us petty blacks who would more than like settle for an official government condemnation of the act. And hey if MY ANCESTORS (which would mean you'd have to get not only the continent, but the country, and more than likely the tribe too) enslaved your folks, damn right someone needs to be held accountable for their actions.

Regarding Black comedians using racial stereotypes - I never said it was right or fair, however again context definately needs to be looked at. When someone says "Why cant white people dance" and procedes to riff on it getting a laugh out of the audience, it isnt seen in the same light as when someone says "Im not gonna hire that black man, he'll probably be late and sleep on the job". Please tell me we understand this.

If someone wants to think I'm on some sort of high horse, I could give a damn, I really could. Racism - in all its forms that I have seen PERSONALLY - deserves to be pointed out and stamped the hell on like the piece of flaming shit there is.

Joking with the "boys" is one thing, making a sweeping broad statement is wholly another.[/quote:39c1e]

Apparently I misunderstood the beginning of the argument, I apologize if I did. That was the reason behind most of what I said.

However, as for the reparations - my family is German, on both sides. My entire family arrived in America well after the abolition of slavery. However, if good old Al Sharpton gets his way, my entire family will be forced to sacrafice more money and see additional tax money handed out for something they had nothing to do with. So, if you really support that, that's fine. But like I said, if my family - a family with absolutely NO history of slave trading - is held financially accountable for your reparations, then I sure as hell will be collecting a check for what the Egyptians did to the Hebrews, because you share a continent of ancestry and a similar skin color. Sounds bad, doesn't it? You're black so you have to pay? That's what's being said to me. I'm white so I have to pay. I hope you can see why it bothers me.

[ED!]

If reperations came through - which I seriously doubt - it probably would come from one of those FUNDS the United States seems fond of. I cant imagine the average american is going to see a REPERATIONS TAX on their checks. The African American community would be MORE THAN HAPPY with a simple acknowledgement as I said. Thats it. The president - hell MORE than one president - can go off on foreign countries and condemn their actions, but cant do the same here.

The point I am trying to make is I'm sick of excuses. I'm sick of the "oh I didnt mean it that ways" or "opps I cant believe I said that, I totally have alot of [minority] friends". People let shit slide all the time because they dont wanna make waves, and while at times it is best to turn the other check, but there are some times you need to say - screw that, that is NOT cool, and lemme tell you why.

[Drew]

[quote="ED!":b56e8]If reperations came through - which I seriously doubt - it probably would come from one of those FUNDS the United States seems fond of. I cant imagine the average american is going to see a REPERATIONS TAX on their checks. The African American community would be MORE THAN HAPPY with a simple acknowledgement as I said. Thats it. The president - hell MORE than one president - can go off on foreign countries and condemn their actions, but cant do the same here.

The point I am trying to make is I'm sick of excuses. I'm sick of the "oh I didnt mean it that ways" or "opps I cant believe I said that, I totally have alot of [minority] friends". People let shit slide all the time because they dont wanna make waves, and while at times it is best to turn the other check, but there are some times you need to say - screw that, that is NOT cool, and lemme tell you why.[/quote:b56e8]

I agree with a lot of that, but I think if you're going to say you support reparations, you need to explain exactly whose plan. Al Sharpton wants anyone who filed their census as Caucasian to be taxed to finance it.

I was the Vice President of the UNITY organization when I was in high school here in South Carolina. There is a lot of racism down here, and I was completely shocked when I saw just how much. For instance, people dropping the N bomb in casual conversation in the hallways. If you'd done that in my high school in Virginia, you'd be lucky to leave alive. Anyway, that's why I joined, and we made a lot of progress in the school. We did peer-mediation to resolve racially-motivated disputes without people being suspended or expelled. We also got a racial sensitivity program started through the guidance department to try and educate some of the rednecks who were raised to be racists. Basically, if a teacher or authority figure noted students acting in a racist manner, they received one on one counseling from one of the guidance counselors. Usually it was the head counselor, who was also black.

Anyway, ED, I hate racism just as much as you, maybe even more because I not only have to see my friends endure it, but I also have to suffer the consequences of it via affirmative action and such things. I just think that if you are going to be vocal, you need to choose your words wisely and be careful not to create double standards. I think you made some pretty generalized statements about white people, and that's not really fair when the racist sect of our culture is not the majority. I know that I myself have done a lot, including putting myself at personal, physical risk, and I was highly insulted by the assumption that my skin color defines me as inherently racist.

[Snuff]

This is obviously a sensitive issue(s) and everyone will not agree. I have stated my opinion and I am now out of this thread, but I would like to commend everyone on keeping a certain level of maturity. This just proves that serious issues can be discussed without it desintegrating into a flame war. Opinions were given and logic (agreed with or not) was used to back up arguments. I agree with Noctis, its probably time to let this thread go before emotions run to high and things start to get ugly. lets agree to disagree. I vote Lock!

[pest]

I thought clinton did apologize for slavery....????

Anyway, we are all racist and prejudiced to one degree or another. Anyone that says otherwise is either lying, deluded, or a saint. The black community is much more publicly vocal about their prejudices, but it is tolerated and accepted because of the absolutely deplorable treatment they recieved for the better part of the last two centuries. People should be judged on their merits, but I still find myself making generalized statements (even in this thread), that while based on my experiences, are too broad to be 100% accurate. Just my $0.02.

[Drew]

I think ED should be allowed another reply if he desires.. but this thread should get locked.

Why?

[img]http://www.0ed.net/uploader/uploads/noctis_hijacklive.jpg[/img]

[ED!]

[quote:3caf5]I thought clinton did apologize for slavery....????[/quote:3caf5]

What I'm talking about is a resolution, something akin to a National Proclomation. I mean German has condemned the actions of the Nazi's, Hitler is NO hero no matter the things he actually helped Germany with. Why cant that be done here. Simple - politics. You still have people who feel certain ways, and even proposing something like this could be career suicide.

And please there should be no moritorium on threads. I mean girly thread can go for 50 pages, and I think we get the point by page 20 - tits and ass rule, but it keeps going. I say fair play on all threads. If someone feels the need to explode - stay out of the thread.