Taking the kids to the gun range to shoot - Page 4

BallisticWookie · 08-14-2002, 04:30 AM

The problem with firearms and firearm related crimes in Australia are not the legally bought and owned guns by responsible and careful gun owners but the influx of illegal black market arms which are readily available if you know who to talk too. I am a sporting shooter, and therefore I love going out for a shoot. Past events have robbed the responsible shooters in Australia of their weapons and this is not right. I dont think fully automatic weapons should be available to the wider public, but semi automatic weapons should be available to, but limited to those who pass the required testing and standards.

More people are killed on roads each year than by gun related incidents, so should cars be banned ?? No, ofcourse not, that wouldnt be sensible. I dont think disarming the responsible public is a smart thing to do or the right thing to do. If people want semi/full auto guns badly enough they will find ways to get them. Disarming the public (the responsible ones) is not gun control, it's mass disarmament in dangerous times. Most people I know who own guns wouldnt even use them for defence, they would just use a plank of wood, golf club or baseball bat, alot cleaner, quieter and easier to use. Do I agree with the Australian Governments stance on gun ownership ?? Fuck no I dont. Full auto rifles, no. Semi auto shotguns and rifles, yes.

Wolf-Man, that Australians, guns = aggression bullshit is exactly why us sporting shooters are shunned or looked down upon. What, do you think all people who own weapons are trigger happy lunatics ?? People have terrible misconceptions about why we shoot and own weapons. It's not for defence it's not for attack, it's for fun, pleasure, and getting outdoors and having a blast. Theres nothing quite like lining up your sights on a target, pulling the trigger and finding you hit dead center, it's a great feeling.

Low Spark, I respect your feelings and your choice. But you have to respect the fact that people will always own weapons, and if they are responsible gun owners there really shouldnt be a problem. You say "their" freedom is more important than yours ?? I disagree, and frankly I find that to be absolute bullshit. Most people who own guns, as I've said are responsible, upstanding citizens who (in the case of Americans) want to protect their family and also go shooting from time to time. How can their freedom be more important than yours if they are within the boundries of the law with their purchased weapons ??

Nice collection of weapons Rudedog

Teach those beautiful girls of yours the fun AND the danger of what guns can do. Sometimes a scare is the best way to make sure nothing terrible happens.

FWB · 08-14-2002, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BallisticWookie

Wolf-Man, that Australians, guns = aggression bullshit is exactly why us sporting shooters are shunned or looked down upon. What, do you think all people who own weapons are trigger happy lunatics ?? People have terrible misconceptions about why we shoot and own weapons. It's not for defence it's not for attack, it's for fun, pleasure, and getting outdoors and having a blast. Theres nothing quite like lining up your sights on a target, pulling the trigger and finding you hit dead center, it's a great feeling.

This is my problem. I think there is something wrong with someone who gets pleasure out of shooting a gun. I honestly believe it is a power issue. You can criticise me all you want for that, but it is how I feel.

As I said, guns are designed, were created for one purpose and one purpose only.... to kill. This is where it differs from your car argument. No offense, but I really don't care whether your sport suffers due to control, if one life is saved from it.

BallisticWookie · 08-14-2002, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FWB

Quote:

Originally Posted by BallisticWookie

Wolf-Man, that Australians, guns = aggression bullshit is exactly why us sporting shooters are shunned or looked down upon. What, do you think all people who own weapons are trigger happy lunatics ?? People have terrible misconceptions about why we shoot and own weapons. It's not for defence it's not for attack, it's for fun, pleasure, and getting outdoors and having a blast. Theres nothing quite like lining up your sights on a target, pulling the trigger and finding you hit dead center, it's a great feeling.

This is my problem. I think there is something wrong with someone who gets pleasure out of shooting a gun. I honestly believe it is a power issue. You can criticise me all you want for that, but it is how I feel.

As I said, guns are designed, were created for one purpose and one purpose only.... to kill. This is where it differs from your car argument. No offense, but I really don't care whether your sport suffers due to control, if one life is saved from it.

A power issue over what ?? What power am I supposed to be feeling holding a piece a metal ?? Have you ever held and fired a weapon before ?? I doubt it, so I really doubt you understand what you are talking about. Yes they are an instrument of death, but our purpose is not to dish out death and destruction. We are SPORTING shooters, we dont kill anything, we shoot paper targets which dont represent anything living, just a round circle with numbers on it.

I care that a sport I am involved in is being destroyed by anti gun lobbyists who dont have the slightest fucking clue what they are talking about when they are directing insults toward the responsible gun owners. We arent hurting anyone, we mind our own business, we shoot in highly regulated and monitered environments, there are always range and safety officers present (my Father is a range officer) and we all know the dangers that are present when shooting. We are responsible, we take care of visitors who come along and watch, we offer them our weapons to shoot briefly (while watching them like hawks) and we make it clear that guns are deadly and we make no exceptions to that.

If you dont like the fact that we shoot guns for fun and relaxation, then sorry, no offence, but I dont care either. What I dont get is that you play games that represent realistically (in the loosest sense) what guns can do, and you come on here spouting crap about how bad and dangerous they are and that you cant stand them. If you dont like guns, dont have anything to do with them and dont play anything that allows you to shoot people, because as far as I am concerned, thats pretty damn hypocritical on your part.

Wolf-Man · 08-14-2002, 04:59 AM

[quote:4cb68]As I said, guns are designed, were created for one purpose and one purpose only.... to kill. This is where it differs from your car argument. No offense, but I really don't care whether your sport suffers due to control, if one life is saved from it.[/quote:4cb68]

here here

FWB · 08-14-2002, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BallisticWookie

A power issue over what ?? What power am I supposed to be feeling holding a piece a metal ?? Have you ever held and fired a weapon before ?? I doubt it, so I really doubt you understand what you are talking about. Yes they are an instrument of death, but our purpose is not to dish out death and destruction. We are SPORTING shooters, we dont kill anything, we shoot paper targets which dont represent anything living, just a round circle with numbers on it.

I have fired a gun on a numrous occasions, most of which were during my time in the RAF. :) I know you don't kill anything, but at the end of the day all guns are designed to kill and the majority are used to follow up on that.

[quote:97fde]I care that a sport I am involved in is being destroyed by anti gun lobbyists who dont have the slightest fucking clue what they are talking about when they are directing insults toward the responsible gun owners. We arent hurting anyone, we mind our own business, we shoot in highly regulated and monitered environments, there are always range and safety officers present (my Father is a range officer) and we all know the dangers that are present when shooting. We are responsible, we take care of visitors who come along and watch, we offer them our weapons to shoot briefly (while watching them like hawks) and we make it clear that guns are deadly and we make no exceptions to that.[/quote:97fde]

Except the lax control allows the guns to fall into not-so-responsible hands. As I said, I don't care what happens to your sport if control saves just one life.

[quote:97fde]If you dont like the fact that we shoot guns for fun and relaxation, then sorry, no offence, but I dont care either. What I dont get is that you play games that represent realistically (in the loosest sense) what guns can do, and you come on here spouting crap about how bad and dangerous they are and that you cant stand them. [/quote:97fde]

Video games are completely different. For example, I play Europa Universalis and will send off colonists to parts of the world to expand my Empire (or go to war to do so). Now I don't support the historical action that occurred but it is a game, very simply put.

[quote:97fde]If you dont like guns, dont have anything to do with them and dont play anything that allows you to shoot people, because as far as I am concerned, thats pretty damn hypocritical on your part.[/quote:97fde]

If you don't get the difference between video games and real life then I can't help you. In fact I find it scary that you're confusing the two.

rudedog · 08-14-2002, 05:12 AM

Guy's this was not intended to start an argument over guns. I'm not going to argue with anyone over what is right and what is wrong. You each have your opinion and I respect that.

Just remember that I, Keep my guns locked, via a trigger safety, in a safe and then behind a locked closet door.

In my case. I collect guns to target shoot. I don't hunt. ( come on does any of my guns look like hunting guns )

My kids go through a detailed amount of safety. And to be honest if they were not that interested in shooting they would have given up a long time ago.

Just some facts about my trip to the range.
Time at the range. 3 hours
Number of bullets shot by the kids from the .22 24
Times each child got to shoot the .22 4 times
My daughter who shot the Thompson. Had 4 rounds in clip.
We also spend some time reading the rules at the range. Every time we go. They get a little bored with this but know it's the only way they will every get to shoot.

All the pictures where taken when the last rounds where fired.

We go through a little structured fire practice. I 1st check the gun. In front of them. I then hand it to them. They are thought to check a gun whenever anyone hands it to them without question. this means they see me check the gun. They do not believe it's empty and begin to check it for themselves. When they determine it's empty. They begin to load 3 rounds only. Then with my standing over them, they get to fire. After the last round is fired they check the gun again and hand it to me. Right there in front of them I check the gun again. This takes time and my kids are willing to learn how to handle guns more safely. If more parents teach there kids safety ( with anything, cars, guns, fireworks, bow and arrows, bb guns, sports, swimming ) you would see less fatalities.

I make sure when I show my pictures. That I let everyone know, I and my family practice safe gun handling and respect.

You can say what you want about guns and that is your right. I have know several people who have been killed by guns also.

I also know more people killed by drunk drivers then by guns.

People who do not teach proper gun safety should not be allowed to own, touch or shoot a gun. This goes for a lot of parents. These are the people I blame. Not he guns.

Sorry to rant and sorry to start a "gun" fight. No pun intended.

FWB · 08-14-2002, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudedog

I also know more people killed by drunk drivers then by guns.

A fair enough post, but this comment really has nothing to do with the discussion. I could go on for hours about drunk drivers but this post was specifically related to guns. It would be like me bringing it up in regards to the 11th September and how many people terrorists kill.

BallisticWookie · 08-14-2002, 05:53 AM

Good work Rudedog, I see you are very responsible and careful and that is a great thing to see. Child safety when it comes to guns is of the utmost importance and should never ever be overlooked whether at the range or at the home.

I never intended to start a fight over this, this is just a subject that really gets me going. The guns are not to be blamed for the deaths, the person who holds the gun should get the ultimate blame and the Government for their lax control and standards in the first place, any legal gun owner who has gone through the correct channels to buy a gun and gain a license will know that his weapon is in a registry and can be traced, therefore, no gun owner with half a brain will go out and kill indiscriminately, those who have bought a gun illegally, through the black market, are the problem and Customs officers should be doing a better job stemming the flow of black market arms. A gun cannot pick and choose what it kills, it doesnt have a brain, it has a mechanism that is ultimately controlled by the handler, and if that handler is shooting at innocent people than the blame must be squarely pointed toward the user/abuser, not the equipment.

Guns and cars can be compared because they are both dangerous when used irresponsibly. Both can kill quite easily without a problem. The point raised between cars and guns is that both are dangerous, cars obviously more so, and the problem with cars and deaths is once again the person controlling it, not the car itself. So I raised the question, should cars be banned aswell ??

FWB, I know very well the difference between games and real life, dont be so ridiculous. I just dont get that you can enjoy shooting people in games and then when it comes to real life you cant stand guns....I just dont get it.

I do respect peoples wishes to stay away from firearms, that is their choice and their choice alone, but when they start enforcing other people to do the same through their constant lobbying in the courts and other means thats when I get annoyed. I've never forced anyone to hold a gun and fire it and I've never forced my views on another person and made people change their views to go along with mine. Everyone has the right the choose what they want in their life, but when that right is taken away from me, even when I am responsible along with hundreds of thousands of other sporing shooters, that pisses us of and we WILL take a stand.

geRV · 08-14-2002, 05:54 AM

Thats a weird looking mp-5, its missing tha buttstock from the looks of it and it looks very small. Nice m-4 though

Heres my gun

[img]http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gerald.marley/glock-2.jpg[/img]

Blank firing only though. :cry:

FWB · 08-14-2002, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BallisticWookie

I never intended to start a fight over this, this is just a subject that really gets me going. The guns are not to be blamed for the deaths, the person who holds the gun should get the ultimate blame

As Eddie Izzard puts it: Guns don't kill people? Well they bloody help. If you don't have a gun, you can't shoot someone. Simple. I also don't subscribe to the idea that people will resort to other weapons to do their dirty work. Some may, but it requires alot of effort to kill someone with the likes of a knife. A gun is simple. You shoot, you hit. It requires little thinking. It is also more likely to be fatal in an accident. I just can't see that "girl accidentally stabs herself 10 times with a knife" headline. I also believe you wouldn't have these mass school shootings/killings in the US if guns were banned.

[quote:3fcc0] and the Government for their lax control and standards in the first place, any legal gun owner who has gone through the correct channels to buy a gun and gain a license will know that his weapon is in a registry and can be traced, therefore, no gun owner with half a brain will go out and kill indiscriminately, those who have bought a gun illegally, through the black market, are the problem and Customs officers should be doing a better job stemming the flow of black market arms.[/quote:3fcc0]

The best way to do that, and you can deny it all you want but Britain is a good example of this, is to ban them. Yes we still have a small gun problem (nothing is perfect), but you run a risk here just owning one.

[quote:3fcc0] A gun cannot pick and choose what it kills, it doesnt have a brain, it has a mechanism that is ultimately controlled by the handler, and if that handler is shooting at innocent people than the blame must be squarely pointed toward the user/abuser, not the equipment.[/quote:3fcc0]

That's what makes it so scary. It is indiscriminate. It kills civlians - women and children.

[quote:3fcc0]Guns and cars can be compared because they are both dangerous when used irresponsibly. Both can kill quite easily without a problem. The point raised between cars and guns is that both are dangerous, cars obviously more so, and the problem with cars and deaths is once again the person controlling it, not the car itself. So I raised the question, should cars be banned aswell ??[/quote:3fcc0]

Mate, it is a pointless comment. Cars are not designed to kill, guns are.

[quote:3fcc0]FWB, I know very well the difference between games and real life, dont be so ridiculous. I just dont get that you can enjoy shooting people in games and then when it comes to real life you cant stand guns....I just dont get it.[/quote:3fcc0]

Like I said, I find it scary that you are getting confused. What you see on the screen is a bunch of pixel. It is not a real gun. The "gun" in the game cannot kill, it isn't designed to kill. The same goes for other activities. I like paint-ball, it is a lot of fun and I have no problem with people playing it. Why? Because the "guns" in it are not designed to kill, they cannot kill. These are basically adult versions of tag.

Here's a question, why can't you do your shooting with non-lethal/bullet-using weapons?

[quote:3fcc0]I do respect peoples wishes to stay away from firearms, that is their choice and their choice alone,[/quote:3fcc0]

How about you respect the fact that the majority of people in your country (and mine) don't want guns in their society? The majority want to eliminate, or reduce dramatically, any chance of their kid or themselves being blown away.

[quote:3fcc0] but when they start enforcing other people to do the same through their constant lobbying in the courts and other means thats when I get annoyed. I've never forced anyone to hold a gun and fire it and I've never forced my views on another person and made people change their views to go along with mine. [/quote:3fcc0]

Unfortunately, with your view you do. I don't deny that what I support forces a life-style upon gun users, that they can't shoot, but your belief does the same. It forces many of us to live with guns in our society.

[quote:3fcc0]Everyone has the right the choose what they want in their life, but when that right is taken away from me, even when I am responsible along with hundreds of thousands of other sporing shooters, that pisses us of and we WILL take a stand.[/quote:3fcc0]

See above.

pest · 08-14-2002, 07:13 AM

Rude - that is very cool and I agree with the comment that guns owners should have to have safety training. Hunter safety courses are required, why not a gun safety course for first time gun owners. I respect that you are involving the family. My son is still to young to shoot (17 months) and my wife doesnt have much interest although she shot m16s in the airforce.

I have mostly hunting guns myself with those being mostly shotguns, with some deer rifles. Duck hunting has always been my passion, and yes my shotguns are made to kill. Anyone that has much experience with shotguns know that the shottys in MOH are underpowered.

I think I was chatting with you on the server a few weeks ago about some of the guns I got to shoot. I got to shoot a mp5 and a m11, both legal, privately owned, full auto, suppressed. Very cool. I think you mentioned that the semi auto mp5 went for about $4k. The full auto goes for about $7k. The only problem with the class 3 license (full auto) is that you have to give the government the right to enter your house to take the weapon anytime they want with out a warrant or due cause.

Low spark - I respect that you are teaching gun safety even though you are against guns.

I have been around guns my whole life. I love guns. You can never own enough. If nothing else they make good investments. Guns are nothing more than tools. They need to be treated with respect, and gun safety needs to be taught at an early age. They also need to be stored properly and safely. I dont have a gun safe yet, but as my son is getting more and more mobile and curious, I will have one soon.

Colonel · 08-14-2002, 07:47 AM

Nice thread guys. I love a lively discussion. Great post Rudedog. FWB, I couldn't disagree with you more. You say that the most important issue is the "if one life can be saved" theory. If you use this logic, you should encourage gun ownership. As I stated before, the statistics show that guns save more lives than they take. The US government has conducted at least ten studies on this in the last fifteen years, most conducted by an administration that was trying to draw the opposite conclusion, and EVERY study proved that guns save lives. You site gun banning as a solution in Britian. However, crime has increased since the ban.

You mention accidental deaths and of course, this is always tragic. The number of accidental deaths in the US is extremely small. (and in fact is at an all time low in the US). Far less than the number of kids who get into their mom's cleaning supplies and drink something they shouldn't, or the number of kids killed on bikes, or the number of kids killed because their parents didn't make them wear a seatbelt, etc. I know your argument that guns were designed to kill and that makes them different. I somewhat disagree, guns are designed to propel a projectile at a high velocity. Where you aim that projectile is up to you. Some guns are designed solely as good target shooters, but could kill if misused. There are many things in our modern world that are dangerous. Should we ban them all? I understand that in Australia, crime with knives went up are the gun ban and that now there is a movement to ban some knives. Where does it end?

A few additional comments about previous posts: The statement that most people are killed by their own guns is false. The fact is that guns are used more times to prevent a crime than they are to commit a crime. The statement that we would not have any mass school killings in the US if we banned guns, unfortunately, may be false also. The boys in Columbine, Colorado also had homemade bombs. I think if a kid wants to take out several people at his school, he doesn't need a gun to do it.

I think discussing crime statistics and accidental deaths, or whether guns should be allowed only for hunting etc. is irrelevant. The discussion should be about whether or not a human being has a fundamental right to certain freedoms. In America we have many freedoms and they are not always popular. One of the posts says that freedom of speech is the best freedom that we have. But this freedom too, is not always popular and can incite people to kill. If we allowed our police to bust into any house and search it, we might be able to "save one life" but freedom from search and seizure is a human right so we have laws against it. The point is that we must defend our freedoms, even the ones that aren't popular, or we will slowly descend into a society with no freedom. Freedoms are not taken from us in big steps but are whittled away over time. The events of 9/11 have many people talking about the necessity to give up a few freedoms in the name of safety. I believe that it was Thomas Jefferson (I'm not sure, it was one of the Founding Fathers) that said, "A people that gives up their freedom in the name of safety, deserves neither freedom nor safety." Once a freedom is taken away it is almost impossible to get it back. It becomes accepted not to have it. If we ban and confiscate all guns, do you think the people that really shouldn't have them are going to just turn them in? No. I have a couple of guns in my house, but not a single bullet. Do these guns pose a threat to anyone? No. Right now they are just attractive paper weights.

Ok, I think I've vented enough. No more posts from me. (except to correct errors in facts maybe)

ToK Parker · **I've went to a firing range -** 08-14-2002, 08:30 AM

I'm a Boy Scout and I've gotten Rifle Shooting Merit Badge
I shot .22 bolt action rifles which sights wer of so incredibly much, but there were 2 special rifles that the insructor brought out for the last 3 days, a Mosberg (ecsuse the spelling is it's wrong) and an olympic Biathalon rifle, which sights were actually good, but I'm wondering why he didn't get all the sights set like that. Anyway one of the requirement is to fire 5 shots into a group the size of a quarter. The regular .22s just had sights that looked like a u with an i in it but the two others had a big circle and a smaller circle and you had to get the smaller circle around the black and it was almost gaurunteed to get a hit in there (The Mosberg was a little high). I've convinced myself that it was just because the sights were more accurate, but other people beleived those sight were easier to use. That's because I got all my qualifying targets on the last day during free rifle shooting with those two rifles.

BallisticWookie · 08-14-2002, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FWB

Like I said, I find it scary that you are getting confused. What you see on the screen is a bunch of pixel. It is not a real gun. The "gun" in the game cannot kill, it isn't designed to kill. The same goes for other activities. I like paint-ball, it is a lot of fun and I have no problem with people playing it. Why? Because the "guns" in it are not designed to kill, they cannot kill. These are basically adult versions of tag.

Here's a question, why can't you do your shooting with non-lethal/bullet-using weapons?

Why cant I do my shooting with non lethal/bullet using weapons ?? What would be the bloody point ?? "Non lethal" rounds are infact very capable of killing and maiming just as much as live rounds, so your point is moot.

I'm not confused, I dont know why you think that. I know what a bullet does when it enters the body, it twists and turns, tumbles and reduces flesh into mush, destroying vital organs severing arteries, either exiting the body or staying inside causing massive trauma. I know what guns do and I know clearly the difference between gaming and living.

You enjoy gaming ? You enjoy shooting pixels ? You enjoy the fact that you are shooting at representations of humans without the blood and gore and know that you are not actually killing anyone ?? Well guess what, WE ARE DOING EXACTLY THE SAME FUCKING THING, ONLY I SHOOT REAL GUNS AT PAPER TARGETS AND YOU SHOOT PIXELS THAT LOOK LIKE HUMANS ON A COMPUTER. We are not hurting anyone and WOULD never hurt anyone. Do you comprehend ? Criminals with illegal guns should be the target of your dislike for guns, not people like me who follow and obey the law to the letter.

You think mass killings wouldnt occur if guns were banned ?? How stupid are you to believe in something like that ?? Guns are readily available all over the place, banning them wont stop anything, dont you understand ?? Black market arms is BIG business, those arms dealers make shitloads and they sell to whomever has the cash. No law, no worries, it's all about money, you got the money, you got a gun, not a problem at all.

Licenses should be made harder to get, psychological tests should be given, background checks, and whatever else is needed to make sure the licensee isnt going to go postal. If new technology that is being created is made public, guns will only be able to be fired with a special ring on the handlers finger. The gun and the ring work in conjunction, without the ring, the gun is useless. Firearms with this particular application built in would make them much more safer.

I never forced my opinion on you or any of you, I stated my feelings, and you stated yours. You think guns are dangerous by themselves, I dont. I like guns, you dont. Simple as that. If you dont like guns, I'm not going to change to suit your needs and neither is anyone else. The majority of people in my country want guns banned ?? Since when ?? The chance of their kids being blown away accidently would be reduced if the owner was smart enough to lock away his weapons, keep ammunition seperate from the guns and locked away in another compartment.

I'm sorry you feel as though you are being given a raw deal here, being made to live with gun owners and all. Seriously, theres nothing you can do about it, so stop your whining. We have put up with shit from people like you for years now, and we arent going to back down, simple as that. Get used to it.

End of discussion.

Miscguy · 08-14-2002, 11:01 AM

[img]http://www.landi.net/myguns.jpg[/img]

Where did you get the M4, and how much? I really want to take up target shooting. Seeing how i spent time in the army the M4 is a little nestagia for me. Im really more interested in bolt action scoped rifles.

If anyone has some links to some good sites about rifles and so forth im interested.

Love the pic of the older daughter with the tommy. Laughed pretty good on that one.