[FWB]

Originally Posted by Colonel

Nice thread guys. I love a lively discussion. Great post Rudedog. FWB, I couldn't disagree with you more. You say that the most important issue is the "if one life can be saved" theory.
If you use this logic, you should encourage gun ownership. As I stated before, the statistics show that guns save more lives than they take.

Rubbish. Show me the stats.

[quote:dd9c7]The US government has conducted at least ten studies on this in the last fifteen years, most conducted by an administration that was trying to draw the opposite conclusion, and EVERY study proved that guns save lives. You site gun banning as a solution in Britian.[/quote:dd9c7]

Show me the stats. How on earth do you judge it saved a life? I'm sorry mate, but I think you're talking out your rear-end there. Here's a critique of "preventing-crime" "studies":

http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/TheCas ... tml#arming

[quote:dd9c7]However, crime has increased since the ban.[/quote:dd9c7]

But not gun-related crimes. You are trying to make a link where none exists. Our crime issue is down to other problems. Many pro-gun groups try and use this poor argument.

[quote:dd9c7]You mention accidental deaths and of course, this is always tragic. The number of accidental deaths in the US is extremely small. (and in fact is at an all time low in the US). Far less than the number of kids who get into their mom's cleaning supplies and drink something they shouldn't, or the number of kids killed on bikes, or the number of kids killed because their parents didn't make them wear a seatbelt, etc.[/quote:dd9c7]

And what about non-accidental deaths? The black communities are the worst to suffer from this, but I guess if you're white and middle class it is alright, right? You don't have to live with it.

[quote:dd9c7] I know your argument that guns were designed to kill and that makes them different. I somewhat disagree, guns are designed to propel a projectile at a high velocity. Where you aim that projectile is up to you. Some guns are designed solely as good target shooters, but could kill if misused. [/quote:dd9c7]

You are fooling yourself if you don't think they are designed to kill. That projectile talk is quite frankly a lame way of trying to get around the issue. Guns are supposed to kill. That is why they were invented and that is why they were designed.

[quote:dd9c7]There are many things in our modern world that are dangerous. Should we ban them all? I understand that in Australia, crime with knives went up are the gun ban and that now there is a movement to ban some knives. Where does it end?[/quote:dd9c7]

Knives are, generally speaking, not designed to kill.

[quote:dd9c7]A few additional comments about previous posts: The statement that most people are killed by their own guns is false. The fact is that guns are used more times to prevent a crime than they are to commit a crime.[/quote:dd9c7]

Show me that stats, and don't bring up the police force, because this discussion is about civilian control.

Every year, more than 30,000 people are shot to death in murders, suicides, and accidents. Another 65,000 suffer from gun injuries.

firearms kill about 85 people every day in this country."

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/200 ... earms.html

If you have a country saturated with guns -- available to people when they are intoxicated, angry or depressed -- it's not unusual guns will be used more often,'' said Rebecca Peters, a Johns Hopkins University fellow specializing in gun violence. ``This has to be treated as a public health emergency.'
http://www.guncite.com/cnngunde.html

I like this paragraph, especially the last line:

Enough of the mindless violence in the United States made possible by easy gun availability. Sure, criminals will find a way to access guns on the black market despite any future ban. But the next time some unbalanced person decides to wreak havoc on a day care center, downtown street or school classroom, let him or her wield a tree branch or throw rocks. Knives of course are effective murder weapons, but not particularly efficient at a distance. Unlike the use of guns with criminal intent, the outlawing of guns in the United States might prove painful for some people, but not fatal.
http://ifrm.glocom.ac.jp/gii/dan20000502en.html

As I said in the another post, get your cheap thrills another way.

[quote:dd9c7] The statement that we would not have any mass school killings in the US if we banned guns, unfortunately, may be false also. The boys in Columbine, Colorado also had homemade bombs. I think if a kid wants to take out several people at his school, he doesn't need a gun to do it.[/quote:dd9c7]

You are being very naive if you think they could've caused the damage they did with just bombs. I believe every single death in that incident was from gun shot wounds. Pipe-bombs are alot harder to kill with, especially if someone is charging straight for you. Have you ever thrown a grenade?

[quote:dd9c7]I think discussing crime statistics and accidental deaths, or whether guns should be allowed only for hunting etc. is irrelevant. The discussion should be about whether or not a human being has a fundamental right to certain freedoms.[/quote:dd9c7]

It isn't irrelevant. Just because you may not be on the receiving end of it doesn't make it unimportant. As for the freedom issue, again, I argued that. I want the freedom of not living in fear of being blasted away.

[quote:dd9c7]In America we have many freedoms and they are not always popular. One of the posts says that freedom of speech is the best freedom that we have. But this freedom too, is not always popular and can incite people to kill. If we allowed our police to bust into any house and search it, we might be able to "save one life" but freedom from search and seizure is a human right so we have laws against it. The point is that we must defend our freedoms, even the ones that aren't popular, or we will slowly descend into a society with no freedom.[/quote:dd9c7]

You are confusing freedom with ancient 19th century values.

[quote:dd9c7] Freedoms are not taken from us in big steps but are whittled away over time. The events of 9/11 have many people talking about the necessity to give up a few freedoms in the name of safety. I believe that it was Thomas Jefferson (I'm not sure, it was one of the Founding Fathers) that said, "A people that gives up their freedom in the name of safety, deserves neither freedom nor safety." Once a freedom is taken away it is almost impossible to get it back. It becomes accepted not to have it. If we ban and confiscate all guns, do you think the people that really shouldn't have them are going to just turn them in?[/quote:dd9c7]

You are clinging to out-dated beliefs.

[quote:dd9c7]No. I have a couple of guns in my house, but not a single bullet. Do these guns pose a threat to anyone? No. Right now they are just attractive paper weights.[/quote:dd9c7]

I don't care what you're doing with yours, I assume you are "responsible" (if you can call someone who owns a gun that ). What I do care about are the morons who have no idea what they're doing. You aren't going to educate them. Have you ever worked in a kindergarten? Have you tried telling a child not to hit someone with their toy? They don't listen. You have to take it away from them. These people are just like that. Call it unfair that they're ruining your fun, but tough. That's the price of life and your "freedom" isn't whether a penny if you're dead.

[quote:dd9c7]Ok, I think I've vented enough. No more posts from me. (except to correct errors in facts maybe)[/quote:dd9c7]

I guess I won't see your stats. Typical, make a claim and then don't back it up.