[rdeyes]

iran doesnt need nukes they are hell bent on blowing away israel , israel has nukes just for this reason, if iran does get nukes whos to say they wont sell a briefcase bomb to some jihadist, if they let the U.N. atomic energy people monitor their nuke program i dont think anyone would have a problem with them having nukes, remember what israel did to iraq's nuclear reactor ??

[KTOG]

As much as it goes against my view on human life. Let them do it. Israel is big kid they don't need Uncle USA to help them fight their own battles. If they lose, so be it. Its when countries that can't fend for themselves are attacked, the US should step in.

[Poseidon]

I completely agree with wilco's comment

It angers me how our own prime minister is so close to the US/ G bush. It just feels like we have lost our independence as a country, that whatever the US does that we have to follow. I hated how the french and other countrys got bitched at because they followed their views when deciding not to help invade iraq. As soon as bush decides to invade iran, Blair will be like "of course i'll help you invade iran" "Who gives a shit about what the rest of our country thinks." Most of our country has forgiven our PM for his decision in following the US into war. If this happens again, I dont think he'll be forgiven as easilly.

The US is a very dangerous country, they should also have their nuclear weapon program removed as well as every other country's.

[rdeyes]

yeah tony blair is falling right in line with the anti- terrorism fad . im glad hes kicking out the inmans that preach hate and that killing civilians is what allah would want . we have a nice place for all of them in cuba or some other country where torture is legal ...

[Short Hand]

Originally Posted by rdeyes

yeah tony blair is falling right in line with the anti- terrorism fad . im glad hes kicking out the inmans that preach hate and that killing civilians is what allah would want . we have a nice place for all of them in cuba or some other country where torture is legal ...

Torture seems legal @ Guantánamo Bay & Abu Gharab.... Why can't Cubans toture people like America can ???

[KTOG]

I pretty sure torture is illegal where ever it takes place. Its all about not getting caught oOo:

[rdeyes]

any method to prevent future terror attacks is fine in my book.

[Tripper]

Originally Posted by Wilko

Look, i don't want to turn this into a "Foreign Leftie bashing the US" thread, but i think most people would agree that America is generally irresponsible and arrogant with the amount of power it wields.
Invading Iraq against the wishes of the United Nations and all but a few sycophantic nations (including, regrettably, Australia :/) is a textbook example of this.

Hey Trip, you reckon we could borrow Helen Clark next time the Yanks come knocking? Howard is useless when dealing with Bush stupid:

Hah, David Lange (Who just passed away a few days ago, R.I.P) is responsible for ruining our friendship with the Yanks back in the 80s, over the USS Buchanan - Which was a very smart move. Previously we were just as good allies as you guys are, during the ANZUS alliance, and we hadn't acted very indepently previously - But after we denied their possible nuclear ship their government hasn't wanted anything to do with us under our Labour government.

Helen Clark is holding the reigns though, god bless her. If we get a national government in power after the next election - We'll probably end up in the U.S's back pocket again. Being in a strong alliance with the U.S ain't terrible news (Potentially saved our ass having the big boys on our block during Vietnam, Korea, Malaya etc), but with them under their current government now it is, IMO.

[Chappy]

so what im reading is that the US is more like to use nukes to start a war rather than the Islamo-fascists in Iran or the Koreans...both dictatorships?

just because you disagree with the war on terrorism, there is no reason to say that we are "irresponsibly wielding our power." every nation has the right to defend itself but i dont blame this administration for getting skittish when the nations that are arming themselves with nukes have hated the US a very long time (not because of the present administration but because we are the US), it scares the shit out of me that Korea and Iran are developing their program...not to mention China.

[Tripper]

Originally Posted by Chappy

so what im reading is that the US is more like to use nukes to start a war rather than the Islamo-fascists in Iran or the Koreans...both dictatorships?

just because you disagree with the war on terrorism, there is no reason to say that we are "irresponsibly wielding our power." every nation has the right to defend itself but i dont blame this administration for getting skittish when the nations that are arming themselves with nukes have hated the US a very long time (not because of the present administration but because we are the US), it scares the shit out of me that Korea and Iran are developing their program...not to mention China.

Dictatorship or not, the U.S is the only one starting wars. I never witnessed Iran or Korea invading two countries within 5 years under false pretenses, anytime recently.

That's why we worry.

[Chappy]

so when they finally do (i have a hard time believing their weapons programs are just for defense) then what?

[quote:ad54d]I never witnessed Iran or Korea invading two countries within 5 years under false pretenses, anytime recently.[/quote:ad54d]

in your opinion...hussein was certainly a heck of a guy, just a little misunderstood...and that taliban, damn were they just screwed over a barrel...poor guys

[Wilko]

Hang on to your hats, kids!

Originally Posted by KTOG

As much as it goes against my view on human life. Let them do it. Israel is big kid they don't need Uncle USA to help them fight their own battles. If they lose, so be it. Its when countries that can't fend for themselves are attacked, the US should step in.

IMO, I think the U.S.'s support of Israel is only exacerbating the problem in the Middle East. It's just viewed as yet more undue Western meddling in their affairs. I'm no Anti-Semite, but from a purely geographical point of view, cramming two countries in where there used to be one was never going to be a good idea.

Originally Posted by Poseidon

I completely agree with wilco's comment

It angers me how our own prime minister is so close to the US/ G bush. It just feels like we have lost our independence as a country, that whatever the US does that we have to follow. I hated how the french and other countrys got bitched at because they followed their views when deciding not to help invade iraq. As soon as bush decides to invade iran, Blair will be like "of course i'll help you invade iran" "Who gives a shit about what the rest of our country thinks." Most of our country has forgiven our PM for his decision in following the US into war. If this happens again, I dont think he'll be forgiven as easilly.

The US is a very dangerous country, they should also have their nuclear weapon program removed as well as every other country's.

I was actually quite disappointed with Blair's (not Britain's) decision to back the Invasion of Iraq. Being of Half-British blood, and having family over there and such, i take a bit of interest in your affairs.

The thing i dont get is, Australia was almost bound to go. With international diplomacy and the like being what it is, we're always going to be someone's bitch, (First England, now the US) otherwise we'll be belted with economic sanctions like New Zealand was after they didn't go with the US to Iraq (Correct me if I'm wrong Trippar).
Britain, on the other hand, could have sided with the European powers and not gone. I mean, surely you rely on fellow European nations for commerce more than the US. Furthermore, it would have strengthened ties with the continent. Sure, the US would have thrown a heap of "OMG WW2 YUO BASTAGES" crap your way, but you wouldn't be in this shitstorm in Iraq at the moment, which, irregardless of whatever anyone says, I believe to be the new Vietnam. rolleyes:

Originally Posted by KTOG

Transcendentalism ... transcendentalism hake:

I just hate how people can't be accepting in what they have or the fact people are different. Name 1 war that was started for a good reason? (I'm not talking about relatition) I mean that one guy or country has to fuck it up for the rest of us, then a bunch of comformists follow him because of some bs called patriotism. The only good war is if aliens came to our Earth and started shooting lasers at us.

The only valid war i can think of is probably the Second World War, because it was fought to stop someone forcefully taking over Europe, and then additionally to stop someone taking over Asia. I think it's valid because every other peaceful option was explored (especially by Chamberlain) before war was declared. This being said, if the abomination that was the First world war never happened, we wouldn't have had a disenfranchised Germany, which never would have given rise to Nazism, etc, etc. rolleyes:

I'm no pacifist, but i'm not warmonger either. I think that war will always be necessary while people try to impose their beliefs and control on others; but it should only be entered into when necessary, and not before.

Originally Posted by rdeyes

yeah tony blair is falling right in line with the anti- terrorism fad . im glad hes kicking out the inmans that preach hate and that killing civilians is what allah would want . we have a nice place for all of them in cuba or some other country where torture is legal ...

[img]http://www.bgammon.freeserve.co.uk/johninmanp.jpg[/img]
Me too!


Well, that's it. I imagine this will make me fairly unpopular with the Patriot crowd, but there you have it. The rants of a Citizen of a politically insignificant nation happy:

[Tripper]

Originally Posted by Chappy

so when they finally do (i have a hard time believing their weapons programs are just for defense) then what?

You're a moron if you think any country develops nukes for a first strike. As soon as someone fires the first nuke it might as well be the end of the human race.

Originally Posted by Chappy

[quote:080d8]I never witnessed Iran or Korea invading two countries within 5 years under false pretenses, anytime recently.

in your opinion...hussein was certainly a heck of a guy, just a little misunderstood...and that taliban, damn were they just screwed over a barrel...poor guys[/quote:080d8]

No, that's not my opinion. Don't put words in my mouth to make your argument work.
I don't think just because a country is in shit shape, it deserves to be invaded. That's fucking stupid. What about rawanda? Zimbabwe? Not to mention the countless other nations running under a dictatorship or countries with a body of citizens being oppressed. You can't just invade countries like that. War is a nasty, nasty thing and should only be used, like Wilko stated - when absolutely necessary.

Don't even try that worthless "Sadaam and the Taliban were bad" argument with me. You can't save a country by invading it. Iraq is now even more fucked than it was before. As is Afgahnistan.

[newt.]

the un is a joke

[Chappy]

look tripper, i respect your opinion and your argument but i cant agree with you that iraq and afghanistan are more fucked up now than they were before and al quieda's organization is ducking and running...the aim for the "war on terror" in the first place

call me a moron if you like but i would rather err on the side of being wrong rather than some militant muslims who hate israel having nukes. given the fact that if they die in battle, they'll go to heaven, whats to stop them from finally ridding the world of the Zionists? not putting words into your mouth...lines are pretty easily read between and other than having a bargaining chip on the world stage, what in the world would korea and iran do with nukes?